Is there Heaven and Hell?

[Aloka]

Here's Ajahn Brahm talking for about 6 minutes.





Any thoughts about the video?

[philg]

Nice talk from a funny guy who puts over a really important message about forgiving yourself, possibly the hardest thing you have to do in Buddhism, especially for us Westerners. The whole idea of heaven and hell is fundamentally one of control over people. 'Do as we say or hell will be the consequence for eternity after you die' is a powerful concept, silly as it is when you think about it deeply and rationally. It relies on splitting the mind and body in a dualistic paradigm which is hard to shrug off when you have grown up with a constant barrage of religious propoganda.

[Aloka]

Nice talk from a funny guy who puts over a really important message about forgiving yourself, possibly the hardest thing you have to do in Buddhism, especially for us Westerners. The whole idea of heaven and hell is fundamentally one of control over people. 'Do as we say or hell will be the consequence for eternity after you die' is a powerful concept, silly as it is when you think about it deeply and rationally. It relies on splitting the mind and body in a dualistic paradigm which is hard to shrug off when you have grown up with a constant barrage of religious propoganda.

[Aloka]

Here's a video of the late teacher Thich Nhat Hahn speaking about: "Do Buddhists believe in Hells and retribution?"(approx. 11 minutes).




Any comments connected to what was said in the video?

[philg]

The sound is a bit iffy so I found the version on YouTube which has subtitles. An excellent talk giving deep insight into the nature of different beliefs in Buddhism, and how to deal with them with compassion and tolerance. If belief in rebirth helps others, then it is ok as long as you understand that it is not the 'deep message' from the Buddha. The same with the idea of hells and retribution. The end is worth listening to for a description of the 'timelessness' moment you can get, where the past and fiture are there if you touch the present in the 'right' way. 'Interbeing of time' is a great description of the timeless experiences you can get with deep insight. BTW, the arm suddenly appearing at around 8 minutes is amusing.

[Element]

It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

SN 35.135 Khana Sutta: The Opportunity

[Element]

Ajahn Brahm was a Jimi Hendrix fan

[philg]

Hi Element. I think the quote from SN 35.135 is best understood in the context of 'This human realm — neither too pleasurable nor too painful — is the best place to practice Dhamma' ( from https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8715). Heaven and hell are merely constructs to make a point, not real places. Thich Nhat Hahn's point is that such ideas are interim concepts often used until people are ready for the deep message from the Buddha which denies their existence.

[Genecanuck]

Hi Aloka,

Yes, we create our heaven and hell. Its all about how we socially construct our reality.

I also agree with Philig's perspective that the major religions throught eternity have used heaven and hello to control people.


Regards,
Gene

[philg]

Personally I think that if there is any truth in hell it is this temporary separateness from everything, the separateness that we call life. We were one with everything, but changed to see ourselves as somehow separate when we became the forms we are today. We still are one with everything if we could only let go of the separateness we feel. The good news is we all get to go to heaven eventually. The bad news is many of us don't realise that we never left.