Thread: Kalakarama Sutta

  1. #1

    Kalakarama Sutta

    .

    I was looking at AN4.25 Kalakarama Sutta earlier today, - and wondered if anyone had any thoughts about it.



    At Kāḷaka’s Monastery

    At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāketa, in Kāḷaka’s monastery. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants, “Mendicants!”

    “Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

    “In this world—with its gods, Māras and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—whatever is seen, heard, thought, known, sought, and explored by the mind: that I know.

    In this world—with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—whatever is seen, heard, thought, known, sought, and explored by the mind: that I have insight into. That has been known by a Realized One, but a Realized One is not subject to it.

    If I were to say that ‘I do not know … the world with its gods’, I would be lying.

    If I were to say that ‘I both know and do not know … the world with its gods’, that would be just the same.

    If I were to say that ‘I neither know nor do not know … the world with its gods’, that would be my fault.

    So a Realized One sees what is to be seen, but does not identify with what is seen, does not identify with what is unseen, does not identify with what is to be seen, and does not identify with a seer. He hears what is to be heard, but does not identify with what is heard, does not identify with what is unheard, does not identify with what is to be heard, and does not identify with a hearer. He thinks what is to be thought, but does not identify with what is thought, does not identify with what is not thought, does not identify with what is to be thought, and does not identify with a thinker. He knows what is to be known, but does not identify with what is known, does not identify with what is unknown, does not identify with what is to be known, and does not identify with a knower.

    Since a Realized One is poised in the midst of things seen, heard, thought, and known, he is the poised one. And I say that there is no better or finer poise than this.

    Such a one does not take anything
    seen, heard, or thought to be ultimately true or false.
    But others get attached, thinking it’s the truth,
    limited by their preconceptions.

    Since they’ve already seen this dart,
    to which people are attached and cling,
    they say, ‘I know, I see, that’s how it is’;
    the Realized Ones have no attachments.”

    https://suttacentral.net/an4.24/en/sujato



  2. #2
    Forums Member mjaviem's Avatar
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    That's a very good Sutta. I think the Teaching is one but we can see it being taught in different manners across the collections. The formula used in this sutta makes me think it's an authentic sutta (very, very close to what the Buddha exactly taught) because in my opinion it's used similarly in other suttas and teaches what is also taught in those other discourses.

    I think the Buddha's omniscience we read here is due to his realization of the ultimate truth of all things: When one knows the truth, one knows the truth of all that there is so it's natural and truthful to say that one knows everything. This wisdom led him beyond true or false because being certain about things is synonymous of confusion and clinging. This wisdom made him stable and released him from misconceiving reality, where one believes things have an ultimate nature. In reality as we are learning there's no defining nature for whichever entity one could contemplate, no gist of things. That things have an ultimate essence is only an illusion we hold. It's not saying that the world is an illusion but that we expect things to have an ultimate core of existence. This is the delusion. And it has nothing to do with being taught that under a microscope things are empty. We can't get rid of the idea that there's meaning and truths in things we care. It's a nice sutta. Thank you for pointing this one out.

  3. #3
    Global Moderator Element's Avatar
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    I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

    Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One
    would not posit as categorically true or false
    anything seen, heard or sensed,
    clung to and considered truth by others.

    Since they have already seen this dart
    to which people cling and adhere,
    saying “I know, I see, it is just so,”
    the Tathāgatas cling to nothing.

    https://suttacentral.net/an4.24/en/bodhi

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Element View Post
    I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
    Yes its good to be able to see different translations of suttas.

    Isn't Kalakarama Sutta the one that's connected to Ven Bhikkhu Nanananda's "The Magic of the Mind" ?

    (Which I haven't read!)



  5. #5
    Global Moderator Esho's Avatar
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    The sutta is the case of a mind that do not proliferate or fabricates. A mind of this kind do not attach to things and thoughts, is still, do not craves and do not identifies.


  6. #6

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