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Thread: Basic philosophy seems contradictory to me.

  1. #11
    Hello and welcome, Avisitor.

    Did you read the whole of the article at the link?

    Also, in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha said:


    SN 45.165 Suffering


    “Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning.”

    https://suttacentral.net/sn45.165/en/bodhi


  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Avisitor
    Say a mother and her child are entangled together through their desires and emotions
    If the child is hurting then the mother suffers due to her clinging to her connection with the child.
    Is it right then to discard the thing which holds mother and child in such a bond?
    All this to remove the suffering? So with this kind of entanglement ... love ... there is suffering??
    I think there's a middle way in that kind of situation. Yes, a mother can feel mental pain if her child is hurting in some way, but in order to help the child, as well as herself, the mother needs to calm down in order to find a workable solution to the problem.

    What people call "love" can also take many forms - and in the case of adult relationships, there's always a possiblity that it can become extremely selfish and destructive, because of the presence of the desire and clinging of one or both of the people involved.

  3. #13
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    It's a misunderstanding of the kind of suffering the Buddha was talking about. I think it's a translation thing, but also something you can only talk about when you have experienced insight into it yourself. Traveller said it well in that it's your relationship with things you work on in Buddhism. Not to become less human or to feel less, but to free yourself from obsessive, harmful behaviours which can arise when the relationship is not fully understood. You can eliminate this kind of suffering but still be full of love and compassion, which somehow become stronger rather than disappear.

  4. #14
    Forums Member Avisitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aloka View Post
    Hello and welcome, Avisitor.

    Did you read the whole of the article at the link?

    Also, in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha said:

    The article was written by a monk. Unknown whether he or she is enlightened.
    Reading it only confirms (to me) that it sounds like a re-iteration of the teachings.
    It does not sound like it comes from a deeper understanding.
    Sorry, just my opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aloka View Post
    I think there's a middle way in that kind of situation. Yes, a mother can feel mental pain if her child is hurting in some way, but in order to help the child, as well as herself, the mother needs to calm down in order to find a workable solution to the problem.

    What people call "love" can also take many forms - and in the case of adult relationships, there's always a possiblity that it can become extremely selfish and destructive, because of the presence of the desire and clinging of one or both of the people involved.
    Why is the mother in need .. to calm down??
    You make an assumption that the mother is in mental pain and upset.
    She is suffering the hurt her child is going through.
    The cause comes from her connection to her child.
    It does not mean the mother can not help her child.
    There might be a solution to the child's issue but that is not what is what we were discussing.
    We are talking about the cause of suffering is desire.
    That desire and suffering is the same thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by philg View Post
    It's a misunderstanding of the kind of suffering the Buddha was talking about. I think it's a translation thing, but also something you can only talk about when you have experienced insight into it yourself. Traveller said it well in that it's your relationship with things you work on in Buddhism. Not to become less human or to feel less, but to free yourself from obsessive, harmful behaviours which can arise when the relationship is not fully understood. You can eliminate this kind of suffering but still be full of love and compassion, which somehow become stronger rather than disappear.
    I believe if one feels love then when another person is hurting, one also hurts.
    Compassion, to be able to feel another person's condition and want to relieve the suffering.
    The Buddha's dukkha is more like a dissatisfaction with life.

    Traveller is on a different understanding and relationship with the path.
    So much further than I comprehend.
    A person being not much more than an aggregate of the six senses and when it becomes dissolute, no permanence.

    Again, I am sorry to be so argumentative.
    It seems my understanding grows when others try to correct me.
    I never take myself too seriously.
    And often, find others are right.
    So please do not be offended by my words.

  5. #15
    I realise that you're not a Buddhist, but I'm a little confused here.

    You gave the following example of a possible situation :

    Quote Originally Posted by Avisitor
    Say a mother and her child are entangled together through their desires and emotions
    If the child is hurting then the mother suffers due to her clinging to her connection with the child.
    and although I wasn't too clear about your intention in giving that example, nor what type of "hurting"or "clinging" the child and mother are supposed to be suffering, I suggested a possible solution to it :

    Quote Originally Posted by Aloka
    Yes, a mother can feel mental pain if her child is hurting in some way, but in order to help the child, as well as herself, the mother needs to calm down in order to find a workable solution to the problem.
    ....but it seems that wasn't the answer you were seeking. I'm sorry if I got my wires crossed, I certainly wasn't looking for an argument with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avisitor
    I believe if one feels love then when another person is hurting, one also hurts.
    Compassion, to be able to feel another person's condition and want to relieve the suffering.

    For compassion to be effective, I think that according to the teachings, it also needs to be accompanied by loving kindness, penetrating insight, and wisdom.



  6. #16
    Forums Member Avisitor's Avatar
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    Sorry about the misunderstanding.
    The example was to show how the love or desire (or clinging) a mother has for her child to be well ... is not a bad thing.
    Suffering pain does not mean there is always a need for a solution.
    My mother passed away recently. My connection with her gave me a moment of suffering.
    It does not mean it is wrong or should not even exist.

    I don't need a solution to the conditions I find myself in.
    However, if one is dis-satisfied with this kind of thing in life
    Then, it can give reason to seek an end to suffering
    Well, that is how I see it from where I stand now.
    Maybe that will change with more insight.

    Yes, I agree that compassion, according to the teachings, needs a deeper penetrating wisdom.
    Sorry again. Not a Buddhist.
    And probably got the concept wrong.
    Thank you for being kind in your replies.
    Last edited by Avisitor; 09 Mar 20 at 02:32.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Avisitor View Post
    Sorry about the misunderstanding.
    No problem, and sorry to hear about the recent loss of your mother, sadly mine passed away from cancer a few years ago.

    Here are the Buddha's words on Loving Kindness in the beautiful Karaniya Metta Sutta (Sn 1.8)

    https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...1.08.amar.html



  8. #18
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    Hi Avisitor, So many wants in one's thoughts can prove problematic, it can bring heavy disappointment, mental illness, envy, Greed, poor decisions, and careless decisions, to switch off those thoughts can be difficult, Meditation and reflection can set you free, if only for a few hours, developing Loving Kindness when one is in a place of distrust can renew one's optimism for life itself!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by walterbyrd View Post
    I am not a Buddhist. I probably don't even understand the basics.

    As I understand it, the idea is to end suffering by not desiring anything. When you learn to do that well enough, you will reach Nirvana - a state where there is no desire, and no sense of self.

    But if you never desire anything, then you will not even desire to be a good Buddhist, and therefore never reach Nirvana.

    How do you stop yourself from desiring anything when you don't desire to do that?
    I would start by saying that not all desires (chandha) are the same, and there's also a distinction made between things like craving (tahna) and clinging (upadana) and desire, but to understand these distinctions requires some familiarity with the suttas and what these terms are referring to. But in general, the idea is that certain desires are skillful (kusala) and following them can lead to one's long-term welfare and happiness and ultimately the transcendence of suffering (dukkha).

    In fact, the desire for happiness/the end of suffering is actually an important part of the Buddhist path. For example, desire is listed as one of the four bases of power (iddhipada), which themselves are included in the seven sets of qualities that lead to the end of suffering (MN 103). The four qualities listed in the bases of power are desire, persistence, intent, and discrimination. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu points to this passage:

    There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' (Similarly with concentration founded on persistence, intent, and discrimination.)

    He goes on to explain that, "This passage shows that the problem lies not in the desire, effort, intent or discrimination, but in the fact that these qualities can be unskillfully applied or improperly tuned to their task." If we take a look at the exchange between Ananda and the brahmin Unnabha in SN 51.15, for example, we can see that the attainment of the goal is indeed achieved through desire, even though paradoxically, the goal is said to be the abandoning of desire. That's because at the end of the path desire, as well as the other three bases of power, subside on their own. As Ananda explains at the end of SN 51.15:

    He earlier had the desire for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding desire subsided. He earlier had aroused energy for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding energy subsided. He earlier had made up his mind to attain arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding resolution subsided. He earlier had made an investigation for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding investigation subsided. (Bodhi)
    In essence, what's ultimately stopped or rooted out is craving through things like desire and effort, which fade on their one once the goal has been reached.
    Last edited by Jason; 26 Jun 20 at 16:59.

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