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Thread: Moment to Moment Dependent Origination

  1. #1

    Moment to Moment Dependent Origination

    In "The Way it Is" by Ajahn Sumedho, in the section "Dependent Origination II : Momentary Arising" he says:


    In Ajahn Buddhadasa's book on Dependent Origination, he emphasises that his approach has been on the paticcasamuppada as working in the moment rather than in terms of past present and future lives.

    When you contemplate, when you practise, you realise that that is the only way it could ever be. This is because we are working with the mind itself. Even when we are considering the birth of a human body, we are not commenting on the birth of our own bodies, but recognising mentally that these bodies were born. Then, in reflection we are noting that mental consciousness arises and ceases. So that whole sequence of Dependent Origination arises and ceases in a moment.

    https://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content...hn-sumedho.pdf
    This is the version of Dependent Origination refered to by Ajahn Sumedho......

    "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

    https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/B...asamuppada.htm


    Any thoughts?

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    "This part of the sutta* tells us not to treat the doctrine of dependent origination lightly; that one should devote his mind and intellect to the study of the doctrine." -- hmmm...no it doesn't say devote to study only that it shouldn't be taken lightly. This ties in with the statements that to live fully in the Dhamma doesn't take study. Study might help if so inclined. Real benefit comes from 'walking the talk'.

    Through full self realisation may come a correct understanding of the law of dependent origination. (not the other way around.)

    "The doctrine of dependent origination is the perfect and ultimate Truth; ... It must be discussed until it is fully understood...Anybody who is able to comprehend the doctrine of dependent origination has the capability to engage in his own cultivation and end his suffering...we must consider it our responsibility to understand it, and help others to understand it. Such is the Buddha’s wish. If we can do it, then the Buddha’s realization of dependent arising will not be in vain.

    It is just like the Four Noble Truths. If nobody understands them, then the Buddha Dharma is useless.
    " - oh dear. the trap of the polemic.

    The writer makes good points at various times and posits howlers like above. The Buddha Dhamma is never useless irrespective of whether anyone understands the Four Noble Truths or not. To come to understand them what one has to do is to continuously equanimously observe the arising and passing (anicca) away of the sensations. Through that comes an understanding of anatta and dukkha. Cut the Vedana - Craving link in the Dhamma-Cakka and leave Samsara without ever having to understand what the good Bhikku propounds to be crucial.

    I wonder if the writer is speaking to a particular audience at a particular time in a particular place for a particular purpose and it's somewhat out of context here and now? On the other hand it strikes me somewhat as the at times jocular statements by other teachers that only make sense (or are forgivable) in context.


    * “Ananda, do not say so. The doctrine of dependent origination is so profound that sentient beings are unable to comprehend it. They are unable to understand what I teach; likewise, they are unable to perceive the process of dependent arising. Consequently, they are perplexed just like with a ball of entangled thread, a jumble of munja grass. They cannot free themselves from sufferings, state of deprivation [apaaya-bhumi], degeneration, and transmigration.”

  3. #3
    Hi Changing,

    Please could you make use of the quote facility in your posting boxes by clicking on the appropriate icon (like a speech bubble) and following the instructions at the link below from our Technical Help forum.

    https://www.buddhismwithoutboundarie...quote-facility

    This topic, and the quote in the OP #1, is about "Moment to moment Dependent Origination"/ "Momentary Dependent Origination" (rather than the 3 lives version). I'm sorry, but I'm not at all clear from your post what your thoughts are about this .

    Here's another example to be found in Ajahn Amaro's "Theravada Buddhism in a Nutshell", under the

    sub - heading "Dependent Origination -the Source Code" and ending with the following paragraph:



    This cycle of rebirth is what was illustrated in that last story: my being born into my negativity and then being shown that there really wasn’t anything to be negative about. The other monk was born into his chocolate éclair. We get born into all kinds of things. It’s not just what happens in the maternity ward. Birth is happening many, many times a day. We can look at it on an external, physical level, but more directly we can see over and over the whole process on a psychological level.

    https://tisarana.ca/static/books/ama...a_nutshell.pdf



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    Hi Aloka, thank you for the quote instructions.

    The idea re birth as something that happens continuously may or may not be true. Perhaps a read of Dr Arthur Janov and co will give some pointers.

    Whatever the truth of the matter is, reaching the goal will reveal it to each individual. No one will reach the goal will do so based on a belief or intellectual knowledge that it is, or is not.

    ...and contrary to what "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu seems to say knowing no thing or believing no thing about the matter will stop any correct serious practitioner from reaching the goal

    With Metta

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    ...and contrary to what "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu seems to say, knowing no thing or believing no thing about the matter will stop any correct serious practitioner from reaching the goal
    is incorrectly stated. : it should read : "...and contrary to what "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu seems to say, knowing no thing or believing no thing about the matter will not stop any correct serious practitioner from reaching the goal." - however clinging to a belief one way or another will do so.

  6. #6
    I have been informed by a friend that this is a much better translation of Ven. Buddhadasa's

    "Paticcasamuppada" :

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/161993913...ticcasamuppada


    Quote Originally Posted by Changing
    is incorrectly stated. : it should read...
    There's a 12 hours "edit" button available at the bottom of your posting box.

  7. #7
    Forums Member Element's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Changing View Post
    "The doctrine of dependent origination is the perfect and ultimate Truth; ... It must be discussed until it is fully understood...Anybody who is able to comprehend the doctrine of dependent origination has the capability to engage in his own cultivation and end his suffering...we must consider it our responsibility to understand it, and help others to understand it. Such is the Buddha’s wish. If we can do it, then the Buddha’s realization of dependent arising will not be in vain.

    It is just like the Four Noble Truths. If nobody understands them, then the Buddha Dharma is useless.
    " - oh dear. the trap of the polemic.

    The writer makes good points at various times and posits howlers like above. The Buddha Dhamma is never useless irrespective of whether anyone understands the Four Noble Truths or not. To come to understand them what one has to do is to continuously equanimously observe the arising and passing (anicca) away of the sensations. Through that comes an understanding of anatta and dukkha. Cut the Vedana - Craving link in the Dhamma-Cakka and leave Samsara without ever having to understand what the good Bhikku propounds to be crucial.
    Hi there

    Its difficult for me to understand why you are attacking Bhikkhu Buddhadasa because my impression is he emphasised the same thing as you; namely practising correctly according to Dependent Origination by cutting the craving at feelings. If you don't know what Dependent Origination is, how can you practise accordingly?

    Regards

    If we have adequate mindfulness and wisdom, we can bring sufficient mindfulness and wisdom into the process just at that moment of contact. To show this, we will repeat the process from the very beginning.

    The eye, dependent on the form, gives birth to eye-consciousness. These three things coming together in function are called contact (phassa). Now, in this case of a man who has adequate mindfulness and wisdom just in the time of contact, he can use that mindfulness and wisdom to govern the contact. Then, it will be wise contact.

    Such wise contact will not give birth to blind feeling, but to wise feeling. As the cause is wise, contact gives birth to wise feeling. Wise feeling cannot give birth to blind want, but gives rise to wise want or want with wisdom. We must differentiate this from the first case of ignorant contact. Then, wise contact or awakened contact, gives birth to wise feeling, whether the feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. This is feeling with wisdom through mindfulness. Such a feeling cannot give rise to blind want or desire, but will only give birth to wise want, which cannot be called desire.

    Then, we have wise want. The wise want cannot give birth to attachment. Thus, there is no attachment to the illusive concept of “I” or “my” and there is no existence for the “self” and no birth of the “self.” There is no “self,” that is no “I” or “my,” which will be. Then nothing can come into contact with the “I,” because without “I” there is no problem of the mind at all. So we have seen Idappaccayatā in the process of not giving rise to problems in human life.

    You can see that there are two ways or two kinds of Idappaccayatā. The first runs by ignorance and ends in the problem of suffering. The second runs by means of mindfulness and wisdom and is the ending of all problems.

    https://dhammatalks.net/Books6/Buddh...f_Buddhism.pdf
    Last edited by Element; 02 Apr 19 at 06:20.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Changing View Post

    Perhaps a read of Dr Arthur Janov and co will give some pointers.
    i have no idea who that is, or how its relevant to the topic, sorry.

    .

  9. #9
    Forums Member Element's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Changing View Post
    The idea re birth as something that happens continuously may or may not be true. Perhaps a read of Dr Arthur Janov and co will give some pointers.
    The notion of "repeated birth" is written in the suttas, such as:

    153. Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house. Repeated birth is indeed suffering!

    Dhammapada
    If you do not actually understand what "birth" ("jati") and "repeated birth" is, your mind will continue engaging in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Changing View Post
    Whatever the truth of the matter is, reaching the goal will reveal it to each individual. No one will reach the goal will do so based on a belief or intellectual knowledge that it is, or is not.
    Obviously the above is contrary to the Buddhist Path, which has Right Understanding as its 1st factor.

    Your own mind & posts here are loaded with views about how to practise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Changing View Post
    ...and contrary to what "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu seems to say knowing no thing or believing no thing about the matter will stop any correct serious practitioner from reaching the goal
    Reading the above book shows it was an introduction to a series of talks. It was a book translated by an American into English. The book is primarily about explaining to Thais that the traditional view of Three Life Time Dependent Origination cannot be practised. Instead, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa offered an explanation that can be practised. Again, I struggle to fathom why you are attacking Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. In the book, he said:

    In teaching, speaking about and discussing Paticcasamuppada, we tend to do so with misunderstanding. Having been taught, we are not able to put it into practice, or we practice more and more incorrectly as we go along.
    The introduction says:
    The strength of the Venerable Buddhadasa's approach to this subject is that he bypasses the commentaries and returns to the original Pali scriptures as his source,always with an eye to making the teaching practical, here and now, in the lives of people seriously interested in ending suffering. Paticcasamuppada is nothing more than a detailed analysis of suffering, its arising, its ceasing and the way leading to its ceasing. By understanding Dependent Origination, we see clearly how to practice..
    Last edited by Element; 02 Apr 19 at 06:41.

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    with metta...

    "re birth" in this case meant regarding birth. It could have been expressed better: The idea regarding birth as something that happens continuously throughout ones life and not necessarily as reincarnation. Buddha explained it as a becoming and passing that flickers on and off trillions of times in the blinking of an eye. The author seems to be using that as a not novel concept as an argument against the three... . Fair enough. Does it matter as far as walking the path?

    The Right Understanding means Correct Understanding or Understanding in the Right way. This is a Wisdom component of the Noble Path. In other words Insight or continuous equanimous observation of the arising and passing away of all things. This Right Understanding has fruits like a real knowing of such questions as is there reincarnation. An intellectual knowledge or belief or not about rebirth does not in itself essential to a practitioner which is contrary to categorical statements by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa.

    Bhikkhu Buddhadasa himself points out the groundrules for accepting or rejecting good or false teaching then he makes clear wrong statements which by his logic makes his polemic wrong to that extent. Certainly he also makes good points.

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