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Thread: Is It Better to Have Never Been Born?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by daverupa View Post
    I know all y'all are saying that. According to Early Buddhism, it's completely inaccurate.
    According to whose interpretation, to my mind I've already posted a number a examples which indicate it isn't.


    No, it really isn't. It's the cessation of experience, the cessation of the All, and therefore by definition no consciousness can arise, since all consciousness of any kind is part of the All.
    That doesn't actually contradict anything I've said, (although it's clear by your ordering that here you're talking in the context of sense-base derivative again, rather than vinnanam anidassanaṃ (contentious english definition)).


    It's not "beyond" because it's not anything in the first place.
    Ok yes, I have to concede that in retrospect that may have been a bit of an untidy way of speaking about the situation, as it does lend itself to minds propensity to objectify. Although in fairness I subsequently went to lengths to point out that mind can't really lay a glove on this without ending up where you did. Just to reiterate, although clearly not 'anything', or 'anywhere', totally-unbound (paranibbana) is also . not nothingness.


    I mean, I know you're trying to use formless attainments to make your point, but it doesn't make your point because parinibbana isn't a meditative attainment, it's a term for the "nothing else ever" for that arahant when the body finally drops.
    Ha! who attains what. Even basic meditation is really often just about 'getting out of your own way'. Anyway, I analogised it with Nirodha-samāpatti: 'attainment of ceasing' or 'attainment of extinction', albeit qualifying with "only really . when the bases . are utterly extinguished", and did so merely in case there was any interest in joining some of the dots in order to at least better understand where I was coming from.


    Parinibbana is the absence of experience. If you try to say that there is a special experience that goes beyond the All in any way whatsoever, you have not yet understood how this is understood in the early texts. Let me mention what the historical Buddha had to say about this:

    SN 35.23:
    I felt I'd already explained fairly succinctly why I'm not talking about a 'special experience', and with respect accordingly see your use of the sutta quote as irrelevant in this instance. Nothing I've said contradicts that piece.

    Tbh, at this stage I'm fairly happy to agree to disagree, and move on, content in my position.
    Last edited by uguay; 08 Dec 17 at 22:31.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by daverupa View Post

    Parinibbana is the absence of experience. If you try to say that there is a special experience that goes beyond the All in any way whatsoever, you have not yet understood how this is understood in the early texts. Let me mention what the historical Buddha had to say about this:

    SN 35.23:

    Just quickly going back to this posting of the Sabbe Sutta again, here's Thanissaro's (imo slightly less abrasive) translation SN 35, which is particularly interesting because in his notes at the bottom, he states;

    MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (vinnanam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All."
    ...

    MN 49

    "'Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you.'

    "'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.'

    "'Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around,

    has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.

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