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Thread: Why do people make public claims to Enlightement?

  1. #61
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    Although for my purposes I would rather people do both- share experiences and move on!

  2. #62
    Here's an article "True Stories About Sitting Meditation from Charlotte Joko Beck, Joseph Goldstein, Sylvia Boorstein, and Sharon Salzberg"

    https://www.lionsroar.com/true-stori...aron-salzberg/

    I liked these comments from the late Charlotte Joko Beck (Zen teacher) :


    "I meet all sorts of people who’ve had all sorts of experiences and they’re still confused and not doing very well in their life. Experiences are not enough.

    My students learn that if they have so-called experiences, I really don’t care much about hearing about them. I just tell them, “Yeah, that’s O.K. Don’t hold onto it. And how are you getting along with your mother?” Otherwise, they get stuck there. It’s not the important thing in practice."


    Question: And may I ask you what is?

    "Learning how to deal with one’s personal, egotistic self. That’s the work. Very, very difficult."



  3. #63
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    Which is typical Zen, of course. One of the key elements is to say 'It's not that' to anything the student comes up with. In the end, if you have to ask, then the experience really wasn't anything to get hung up on. Just as if they were all shared, we would understand that such varied outcomes point to ours not being anything special, just pointers along the way. On the other hand, if she really doesn't care about listening, how can she call herself a teacher? I think that's why I didn't choose a Zen community as something I wanted to be part of.

  4. #64
    Worth considering in connection with anyone who publicly claims enlightenment :


    The important point -- and I cannot emphasize this enough -- is that within Buddhism a teacher who assertively advertises himself as enlightened -- especially "fully enlightened" -- is to be regarded with great suspicion. If anything, the more realized the teacher, the less likely he or she will make claims about his own spiritual accomplishments.


    https://www.thoughtco.com/enlightene...uddhism-449733



    .

  5. #65
    Ven. Thich Nhat Hahn talks about enlightenment : "What is Nirvana?" (approx. 6 minutes)





    Excerpt from the video:


    "Nirvana is the capacity of removing wrong notions, wrong perceptions, which is the practice of freedom. Nirvana can be translated as freedom....freedom from views. In Buddhism all views are wrong views. When you get in touch with reality, you no longer have views, you have wisdom."


  6. #66
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    Great video, great talk. One of the best definitions of enlightenment I have heard. He gets to the crux of the matter- that during enlightenment we go beyond ideas; that ideas of birth, life and death are just that, ideas. It is wrong notions of things that cause suffering, so nirvana should be looked at freedom from all notions, wherever they arise.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by philg View Post
    Which is typical Zen, of course. One of the key elements is to say 'It's not that' to anything the student comes up with. In the end, if you have to ask, then the experience really wasn't anything to get hung up on. Just as if they were all shared, we would understand that such varied outcomes point to ours not being anything special, just pointers along the way. On the other hand, if she really doesn't care about listening, how can she call herself a teacher? I think that's why I didn't choose a Zen community as something I wanted to be part of.
    It is not only Zen that is not interested in getting hung up on conditioned phenomena that arises as a consequence of conditions such as intensive retreat experience.

    Just about all meditating buddhist sects do not encourage holding on to rising and passing phenomena, the concept is enshrined in the four noble truths.

    As Aloka has said #66, groups or individuals who claim they are enlightened I would go as far as to say can not be, as they are obviously missing the crucial point that conditioned phenomena arises out of conditions which are constantly changing, particular to that moment in time, therefore not transferable to another, they are only sign posts on a journey, not the point of the journey

    Like any sign post they are not a place to dwell, the important information is how to proceed on the path.

    I would also suggest that Charlotte Joko Beck displayed the attribute of a true teacher, not encouraging the student to get caught in self delusion regarding experiences their ego can easily be caught in, passing those delusions on to others who are only too ready to grasp after illusions and thereby losing the path.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by McKmike View Post
    It is not only Zen that is not interested in getting hung up on conditioned phenomena that arises as a consequence of conditions such as intensive retreat experience.

    Just about all meditating buddhist sects do not encourage holding on to rising and passing phenomena, the concept is enshrined in the four noble truths.

    I would also suggest that Charlotte Joko Beck displayed the attribute of a true teacher, not encouraging the student to get caught in self delusion regarding experiences their ego can easily be caught in, passing those delusions on to others who are only too ready to grasp after illusions and thereby losing the path.
    I would also suggest that, in keeping with the theme of this thread, that the idea of disregarding experiences should also be looked on as something to let go of.

  9. #69
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    I agree, its just one more thing to let go of....

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by philg View Post
    I would also suggest that, in keeping with the theme of this thread, that the idea of disregarding experiences should also be looked on as something to let go of.

    Perhaps also meaning that others should regard you as a fully enlightened being yourself, Phil?

    Here are some quotes from your self-published book "Enlightenment for Grown-Ups" which are available to read:

    "Enlightenment for grown-ups gives it to you straight. Develop meditation techniques, use them in a structured way to revisit key ideas that are responsible for how your brain is wired up and you too will experience the world as an enlightened being. And the journey isn't bad either."



    "Full enlightenment not your goal? Even if you have decided not to go all the way, this book is still for you....."

    "Enlightenment experiences will show you the world as it really is, laid out there in front of you, ready to understand in your own unique way."

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