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Thread: simple logic - by riju

  1. #21
    Hi riju

    Can you decide which one of the 3 current threads you've been posting in about the lotus sutra you want to continue with, please ?

    (this is including the thread "riju(lotus sutra)" in the Mahayana forum)

  2. #22
    Forums Member Dave The Seeker's Avatar
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    My friend, this member and others are attached to the thought they are always right in their understanding.
    Then there are some others who are open to the thought of discussion.

    I see no point in trying to engage the ones who aren't open to meaningful discussion.

    With Metta

  3. #23
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    Shariputra said, "No, World-Honored One. This rich man simply made it possible for his sons to escape the peril of fire and preserve their lives. He did not commit a falsehood. Why do I say this? Because if they were able to preserve their lives, then they had already obtained a plaything of sorts. And how much more so when, through an expedient means, they are rescued from that burning house! World-Honored One, even if the rich man had not given them the tiniest carriage, he would still not be guilty of falsehood. Why? Because this rich man had earlier made up his mind that he would employ an expedient means to cause his sons to escape. Using a device of this kind was no act of falsehood. How much less so, then, when the rich man knew that his wealth was limitless and he intended to enrich and benefit his sons by giving each of them a large carriage."

    The above para is from chapter 3..Lotus sutra named "Simile and Parable"
    Also read chapter 2 and 3 . You will get the answers. I will answer any specific question you raise after reading as well.

    Buddha had not committed any falsehood to teach earlier to this. etc.
    Last edited by riju; 07 Jul 12 at 12:39.

  4. #24
    Forums Member The Thinker's Avatar
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    I have only one question riju :)

    I would like to hear your view of this texts you send link of.
    What is your understanding of what it means? please use your own words and not a new quote.

    The thinker

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thinker View Post
    I have only one question riju :)

    I would like to hear your view of this texts you send link of.
    What is your understanding of what it means? please use your own words and not a new quote.

    The thinker
    NOTHING EXISTS/EMPTINESS/SUNIATA has to be experienced if one starts on Lotus sutra.
    My one mistake was that I assumed experience of Emptiness is widespread among Mahayanists. But now I undrstand that it is a rare experience.

    Thinker and many others are right in their thinking and I am wrong.One has to study various sutras and meditate till one experiences Emptiness. I call this path Hinayana/Therwada.

    After experience of Emptiness one goes thro a Blank (gap). This experience is very vivid and sharp and never to be forgotten.

    And then the path of Mahayana starts and all the earlier sutras become almost redundent (not immeditely, but slowly) and "I am" (Existence) and "I am not" (Emptiness) Wisdom takes over and then the Lotus sutra opens up.

  6. #26
    Forums Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Dear riju,

    Quote Originally Posted by riju View Post
    Logic no 1.......Buddhas are wisest of the wise.
    Logic no 2.......All buddhas made a better universe before going to Nirvana
    (as per Lotus sutra)
    Logic no 3.......A desire is a must to make a better Universe.
    Logic no 4.......Desire is a source of suffering.

    Conclusion....

    Follow only one line of HEART sutra {neglect all other sutras) of Guatam Buddha
    TO BECOME A BUDDHA.

    That line in the Heart sutra is " I am and I am Not"
    Where in the Heart Sutra is this stated? Reading the various translations available online, none contain the line "I am and I am Not":

    Heart Sutra (translation Kwan Um School of Zen)

    Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita perceives that all five skandhas are empty and is saved from all suffering and distress.

    Sariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness.

    Sariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. They do not appear or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease. Therefore, in emptiness, no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind, no realm of eyes and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness. No ignorance and also no extinction of it and so forth until no old age and death and also no extinction of them.

    No suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment with nothing to attain.

    The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, no fears exist. Far apart from any perverted views, one dwells in Nirvana.

    In the three worlds, all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.

    Therefore, know that Prajna Paramita is the great transcendent mantra, is the great bright mantra, is the utmost mantra, is the supreme mantra which is able to relieve all suffering and is true not false. So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra, proclaim the mantra which says:

    Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha.

    http://www.dharmanet.org/coursesM/40/HeartSutras.htm
    There is no mention of "is" (asti) or "is not" (nasti), not even in the original Sanskrit. If you claim there is a line "I am and I am Not", then where is it?

    prajñāpāramita-hṛdayam sūtra

    oṃ namo bhagavatyai ārya prajñāpāramitāyai!

    ārya-avalokiteśvaro bodhisattvo gambhīrāṃ prajñāpāramitā caryāṃ caramāṇo vyavalokayati sma: panca-skandhās tāṃś ca svābhava śūnyān paśyati sma.

    iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ. evam eva vedanā saṃjñā saṃskāra vijñānaṃ.

    iha śāriputra: sarva-dharmāḥ śūnyatā-lakṣaṇā, anutpannā aniruddhā, amalā avimalā, anūnā aparipūrṇāḥ.

    tasmāc chāriputra śūnyatayāṃ na rūpaṃ na vedanā na saṃjñā na saṃskārāḥ na vijñānam. na cakṣuḥ-śrotra-ghrāna-jihvā-kāya-manāṃsi. na rūpa-śabda-gandha-rasa-spraṣṭavaya-dharmāh. Na cakṣūr-dhātur. yāvan na manovijñāna-dhātuḥ. na-avidyā na-avidyā-kṣayo. yāvan na jarā-maraṇam na jarā-maraṇa-kṣayo. na duhkha-samudaya-nirodha-margā. Na jñānam, na prāptir na-aprāptiḥ.

    tasmāc chāriputra aprāptitvād bodhisattvasya prajñāpāramitām āśritya viharatyacittāvaraṇaḥ. cittāvaraṇa-nāstitvād atrastro viparyāsa-atikrānto niṣṭhā-nirvāṇa-prāptaḥ.

    tryadhva-vyavasthitāḥ sarva-buddhāḥ prajñāpāramitām āśrityā-anuttarāṃ samyaksambodhim abhisambuddhāḥ.

    tasmāj jñātavyam: prajñāpāramitā mahā-mantro mahā-vidyā mantro 'nuttara-mantro samasama-mantraḥ, sarva duḥkha praśamanaḥ, satyam amithyatāt. prajñāpāramitāyām ukto mantraḥ.

    tadyathā: gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.

    iti prajñāpāramitā-hṛdayam samāptam.

    http://www.visiblemantra.org/heartsutra.html
    Could you provide a reference for the conclusion you formed based on the Heart Sutra? There is absolutely nothing in it akin to "tat tvam asi" - thou art that - or "eso ham asmi, neso ham asmi" - I am thus, I am not thus - so it's impossible to tell where you're coming up with this. The Buddha demonstrated time and time again that "I am" is a false notion, particularly in regard to the five aggregates.

    Quote Originally Posted by riju View Post
    When desire creates unbearable suffering remember "I am not", till suffering
    subsides.Otherwise go on increasing universe of relationship following the path of "I am".

    If one selects the ingredients of Love, Compassion and positive attributes in
    relationships, sufferings will slowdown in coming and the path will be faster.
    Where is it taught to follow the path of "I am" in order to build love, compassion, and other positive attributes? The conclusion does not logically follow from the premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by riju View Post
    Question for Aloka and Others....Where am I wrong in this logic and why should I
    read and learn beyond this about Buddhism?
    There is no logic when premises are flawed and understanding is incomplete.

    Abhaya

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abhaya View Post
    Dear riju,



    Where in the Heart Sutra is this stated? Reading the various translations available online, none contain the line "I am and I am Not":

    Abhya,

    Thanks for putting in so much effort and you are good. I quoted from my memory of past few years and named it heart sutra. I will have to go thro some old papers and dig out the necessary information. It may come out that i am correct in my refrence or I might be slightly out. By tomorrow I will clarify it or admit my mistake and give the sutra proper name.

  8. #28
    Forums Member Element's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riju View Post
    NOTHING EXISTS/EMPTINESS/SUNIATA has to be experienced if one starts on Lotus sutra.

    After experience of Emptiness one goes thro a Blank (gap). This experience is very vivid and sharp and never to be forgotten.
    in buddhism, emptiness is not 'blankness'. in buddhism, emptiness is empty of selfhood

    for example, the world's largest office building, constructed from millions of tonnes of steel & concrete, full of office furniture, office computers, lights, elevators & office workers, is empty (sunnata)

    a box, full to the top with chocolates, is empty (shunyata)

    an Olympic swimming pool, full to the brim with water, is empty (sunnata)

    similarly, the human life , comprised from physical matter, feeling, perception, thought function & consciousness, is empty (shunyata)

    Last edited by Element; 07 Jul 12 at 21:19.

  9. #29
    Forums Member. Ngagpa's Avatar
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    riju,
    I am a little unclear as to what you mean by the experience of emptiness, I know you said it is
    vivid and sharp
    however could you elucidate please?

    thank you

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by riju View Post
    Abhya,

    Thanks for putting in so much effort and you are good. I quoted from my memory of past few years and named it heart sutra. I will have to go thro some old papers and dig out the necessary information. It may come out that i am correct in my refrence or I might be slightly out. By tomorrow I will clarify it or admit my mistake and give the sutra proper name.

    Today I searched from my old heap of papers. I could not find the reference for you. I had at a certain stage donated a big heap of sutras (printed from internet), as i thought i will not require them.

    May be it was sutra with a different name . One line reverbates in my mind from old memories. It is

    " Shubti, I have 32 points and then he says I do not have 32 points.

    It was like "have" and "Not have"
    "I am " and then immediately "I am not". It goes on like this for a full page.
    Any how what ever the sutra, my explanation is very important for me for "I am" and "I am not"

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