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Thread: Question about Mind Only School

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    Question about Mind Only School

    Hello, does anyone knows if from the Mind only School, do the Followers of the Scriptures and Followers of Reasoning accept the self-knower consciousness? I know the first accept the consciousness bases of all and the afflicted consciousness and three final vehicles, whilst the second one doesn't accept those two consciousness and only one final vehicle, but what about the self knower? Is it common to all the Cittamatra schools?

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    welcome Kunsang

    i am not sure how many members here have the knowledge to answer your question

    however, i sent a message to your hotmail about another chatsite

    with metta

    Element

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    thanks, but that is not exactly what I was asking, I'll check out the other address you gave me.

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    Ok thank you

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    Forums Member Lazy Eye's Avatar
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    Hi Kunsang,

    Welcome to Buddhism without Boundaries, and glad to meet you!

    I think it would be helpful to members if you could explain your question in a little more detail, and maybe give some background information about the Mind Only school and the particular doctrines you mention. What is the "self knower consciousness"? Who are the "followers of scriptures" and "followers of reasoning"? In short, what does all this terminology refer to?

    Also what are the relevant Mahayana sutras or other canonical texts?

    Thanks much!

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    ok, I just found in Cutting Through Appearances by Geshe Lhundup Sopa that all the Cittamatras accept the 4 kinds of self-knower, just in case someone is curious to know the answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunsang View Post
    Hello, does anyone knows if from the Mind only School, do the Followers of the Scriptures and Followers of Reasoning accept the self-knower consciousness? I know the first accept the consciousness bases of all and the afflicted consciousness and three final vehicles, whilst the second one doesn't accept those two consciousness and only one final vehicle, but what about the self knower? Is it common to all the Cittamatra schools?
    Seems you're conflating the Chittamatra (mind only) School, which is a Mahayana school, with Sautantrika and Vaibashika two earlier "Individual Vehicle" schools.

    Mind only asserts what Tibetans call "RANG RIK" or, as you state, "knower" consciousness, kind of a watcher of one's own mind. This is not asserted in the Madyamika Prasangika philosophy, which ultimately took hold in Tibet, though some of the lineages still seem to use the term to describe this kind of mind.

    The Vaibashika accept a physical basis for the universe; they assert the impermanence of all compounded phenomena; however, while that phenomena was manifesting they would assert that it has a physical basis. They further assert a very "atheist" (IMO) interpretation of paranirvana---total extinction of consciousness, when a person who achieves liberation passes.

    Sautantrika (sutra school) , like Vaibashika, was one of the 18 schools believed to exist beginning several hundred years after the passing of the Buddha; it asserts that phenomena are transient, like the Vaibashika school, but also dismisses the idea, held by Vaibashika, that there actually exist partless particles, which make up the universe. It refers to these as the product of convention. See http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en...utrantika.html


    for a really in-depth overview of these schools and how they differ
    Last edited by tjampel; 14 Sep 11 at 14:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy Eye View Post
    Hi Kunsang,

    Welcome to Buddhism without Boundaries, and glad to meet you!

    I think it would be helpful to members if you could explain your question in a little more detail, and maybe give some background information about the Mind Only school and the particular doctrines you mention. What is the "self knower consciousness"? Who are the "followers of scriptures" and "followers of reasoning"? In short, what does all this terminology refer to?

    Also what are the relevant Mahayana sutras or other canonical texts?

    Thanks much!

    It's ok I just found the answer. But juts for information:

    -The self knower or self awareness is a kind of mind asserted by some buddhist philosofical schools to 'aprehend the aspect of a mind', therefore 'knows itslef' in the sense that is a mind and its object is only mind, and has the capacity of remembering the experience of the perception from the side pf the subject and not from the object itself.

    - Mind only School are the Yogācāra (Sanskrit; literally: "yoga practice"; "one whose practice is yoga")[1] is an influential school of Buddhist philosophy and psychology emphasizing phenomenology and (some argue) ontology[2] through the interior lens of meditative and yogic practices. It developed within Indian Mahāyāna Buddhism in about the 4th century CE.[3] Yogācāra discourse is founded on the existential truth of the human condition: there is nothing that humans experience that is not mediated by mind. (this was from wikipedia). In brief, they refute the existence of external objects and assert that the three realms (desire, form and formless) are only mind, are made of the same substance than the mind.

    -The followers of Scriptures is one division of the Cittamatra school, the one that follows mainly the five treatises on the Bhumis (grounds) by Asanga. They accept the consciousness bases of all and the afflicted consciousness and three final vehicles.

    -The followers of reasoning, another division of Cittamatra school, follow mainly the seven texts on Valid Cognition (pramana) by Dharmakirti. They don't accept the consciousness bases of all and the afflicted consciousness and only propose one final vehicle (i.e. Buddhahood, Mahayana).

    the basic terminology comes from the 'precious garland of established limits of reality' by the tibetan master Konchog Jigme Wangpo, which is only a summary of the main aspects, definitions and divisions of the main buddhist and non-buddhist schools in India, at the times of the Buddha Shakyamuni. For more information you can check out Geshe Lhundrub Soepa's 'cutting through appearances', which is a translation + commentary of this text, or you can check also any other text about buddhist tenets.

    tnx
    bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjampel View Post
    Seems you're conflating the Chittamatra (mind only) School, which is a Mahayana school, with Sautantrika and Vaibashika two earlier "Individual Vehicle" schools.

    Mind only asserts what Tibetans call "RANG RIK" or, as you state, "knower" consciousness, kind of a watcher of one's own mind. This is not asserted in the Madyamika Prasangika philosophy, which ultimately took hold in Tibet, though some of the lineages still seem to use the term to describe this kind of mind.

    The Vaibashika accept a physical basis for the universe; they assert the impermanence of all compounded phenomena; however, while that phenomena was manifesting they would assert that it has a physical basis. They further assert a very "atheist" (IMO) interpretation of paranirvana---total extinction of consciousness, when a person who achieves liberation passes.

    Sautantrika (sutra school) , like Vaibashika, was one of the 18 schools believed to exist beginning several hundred years after the passing of the Buddha; it asserts that phenomena are transient, like the Vaibashika school, but also dismisses the idea, held by Vaibashika, that there actually exist partless particles, which make up the universe. It refers to these as the product of convention. See http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en...utrantika.html


    for a really in-depth overview of these schools and how they differ
    Oh no, I was not conflating those schools, I was talking about two divisions of Cittamatra school itself, as I just explained above. I know the assertions of the other schools (vaibhashika, sutrantika, svatantrika and prasangika) about the 'rang rig'.
    Maybe you thought I was refering to the Sutrantikas fofllowers of scriptures and the Sutrantikas followers of reasoning, as they also have a similar division.

    tnx anyway
    Last edited by Kunsang; 14 Sep 11 at 14:57.

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