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Thread: Alternate term for "Hinayana"

  1. #61
    Forums Member FBM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuka View Post
    Who said the medicine was bitter?
    The medicine being devoid of inherent characteristics, if the person person perceives it as bitter, it's bitter. Even if others perceive it as sweet.

    I'm just speaking for myself, but I've never had much success - none, really - in trying to force-feed my ideas to others. Just the act of trying seems to inspire stubborn resistance, maybe because it's an affront to the others' intelligence or pride or freedom to believe/think whatever they perceive as best. I've had a lot more success - as I measure it - in just agreeing to disagree and moving on, preserving the peace, equanimity and goodwill. But I'm well aware that others' mileage may vary.

  2. #62
    Forums Member stuka's Avatar
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    Speaking up and telling the truth is not "force-feeding". Yes, flat-earthers guard their illusions jealously and hate to be disabused of them. But the world is not flat.

  3. #63
    Forums Member Lazy Eye's Avatar
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    Perhaps it might be good to continue the above discussion at this thread, since we're kinda going off on a tangent in relation to the OP. Just a suggestion.

    http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries....-Right-speech.

  4. #64
    Forums Member stuka's Avatar
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    Actually, it's not a tangent at all. The search for a euphemism for "hinayana" is informed with an unwilingness to examine the flat-earth worldview ("3-turnings of the wheel") that gives rise to the term in the first place.
    Last edited by Lazy Eye; 15 Sep 11 at 15:31.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by stuka View Post
    Actually, it's not a tangent at all. The search for a euphemism for "hinayana" is informed with an unwilingness to examine the flat-earth worldview ("3-turnings of the wheel") that gives rise to the term in the first place.
    Stuka, this is the Mahayana/Vajrayana forum and we have to abide by the rules of the forum and accept M/V beliefs when posting in it. Even if they did want to believe in a flat earth its up to them!

    Sometimes I agree with what you're saying - but that's completely irrelevant - because we are not the Dhamma police, ok ?....and back to my first paragraph again... !


  6. #66
    Forums Member FBM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuka View Post
    Speaking up and telling the truth is not "force-feeding".
    Not by definition, no. But one can speak up and tell the truth in a cooperative, compassionate, mutually-respectful nurturing way or one can do it in a force-feeding way.

    In my experience, some of those who choose the force-feeding approach are passionately clinging to the doctrine in a way that is edging on being dogmatic. Others are passionately attached to a preferred outcome, with regards to the listener's agreement, compliance, etc. As for myself, I try to speak not only truthfully, but in a helpful, mindful and compassionate manner. After I've spoken, though, I have no control or attachment to the outcome. If my intent was clean and I applied myself with right effort, that's all I can do. The other person always has the right to reject my idea(s), and I don't see that as a reason to reject the other person or to be offended/insulted by that rejection. I reject ideas all the time without rejecting the people who speak them.

    In a few weeks or months, "I'm" not even going to remember that this thread happened. But the effects of this thread may well have no end. If so, "I" have absolutely no control over the effects that "my" comments will have in the future. For "me," that's humility, which leads to patience and forebearance. There's no law that says everyone has to agree with me, and no cosmic punishment for those who don't.

    There are many roads that lead to Rome, though not all roads lead there. If "you're" not on "my" road, that in no way guarantees that "your" road is either mistaken or inferior. You have the same right to tread your road as I do mine. I don't have any more right to demand your acceptance of my ideas than you do to demand mine. Once we let go of notions of absolute truth, we may very well find the ataraxia that Pyrrho, via Sextus Empiricus described and pointed to. I hope you do. I hope I do. I hope everyone does. If that happens as they describe, then epoche is at least one effective approach. Is that the same as nibbana? I don't know, and I'm not willing to accept anyone else's prefabricated answers.

    The only way to know for sure is to try it and find out for oneself, as far as I know. To me, that means relaxing one's grip on absolute authority and certain knowledge and acknowledging that none of us have a monopoly on the truth, including the Buddha as portrayed in the Pali Canon. There's a lot...a whole lot...that I don't know and haven't achieved. That makes me feel a bit more humble and generous towards others who are, like me, dealing with the experiences and information available to them and making the best of it. I don't think anyone at BWB is intentionally doing harm to the dhamma. We're all doing the best with the experiences and information available to us. If we don't all agree, then why should that be surprising or disconcerting, given the wide variety of experiences and information we're working with? Seems more unaviodable than disconcerting to me. :dunno:

    Yes, flat-earthers guard their illusions jealously and hate to be disabused of them. But the world is not flat.
    Sounds like a false analogy to me. The differences between flat-earthers and those who disagree with me over a fine point of Buddhist doctrine are greater than their similarities, I think.
    Last edited by FBM; 15 Sep 11 at 16:48.

  7. #67
    Forums Member stuka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBM View Post
    Not by definition, no. But one can speak up and tell the truth in a cooperative, compassionate, mutually-respectful nurturing way or one can do it in a force-feeding way.

    False dichotomy (with attendant Straw Man).

    At the same time, there is not "mutual respect" in the use of the term term "hinayana" or in the doctrines that give rise to it. Speaking out against use of the term "nigger" and pointing out the fallacy of simply changing the term to "jigaboo" rather than examining the fallacies that give rise to the terms in the first place is not "force-feeding". That's just a straw man that serves to further justify and perpetuate the lie -- blame the one speaking out, call him the angry one.



    Sounds like a false analogy to me.
    Not at all: it's dead-on.


    The differences between flat-earthers and those who disagree with me over a fine point of Buddhist doctrine are greater than their similarities, I think.
    "Three turnings of the wheel is hardly a "fine point". It is a tenet fundamental of this "flat-earth:" view.
    Last edited by stuka; 15 Sep 11 at 17:47.

  8. #68
    Forums Member FBM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuka View Post
    False dichotomy (with attendant Straw Man).

    At the same time, there is not "mutual respect" in the use of the term term "hinayana" or in the doctrines that give rise to it. Speaking out against use of the term "nigger" and pointing out the fallacy of simply changing the term to "jigaboo" rather than examining the fallacies that give rise to the terms in the first place is not "force-feeding".
    In my experience, most people who use the term "Hinayana" simply don't know that it's pejorative. They've just been reading old information. Once I point it out to them, they try to stop using it. But old habits die hard.

    That's just a straw man that serves to further justify and perpetuate the lie -- blame the one speaking out, call him the angry one.
    If it's a straw man (and I don't claim to always be right), it's not an intentional one, as I have no interest in nor motivation to perpetuate any sort of lie. Have I called you "the angry one"? If so, I should apologize. I try not to label people as if they had permanent attributes, but I do sometimes slip up.


    "Three turnings of the wheel is hardly a "fine point". It is a tenet fundamental of this "flat-earth:" view.
    Whether or not it's a fine point depends on one's perspective and degree of familiarity with the history of the development of Buddhism, the doctrines, tenets and myths peculiar to each school. I think there are a fair number people here at BWB who would need to have the "Three turnings" explained to them, and that would be no small task, if you wanted to do the topic justice.

    Anyway, stuka, I hope you take what I say in the vein it was intended, that is, as just a mutual exchange of ideas. No accusations, no attempts to correct or control. Just sharing my experiences and understanding while getting yours. I don't have anything else to share, so I think this will be my last post on the topic. Peace.

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