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dannythehuman
07 Jun 11, 01:00
im wondering what is the point of practicing so much meditation if your only goal is to eradicate the suffering present in this life which might never happen at all and if it does happen it will happen later on in life and if it even happens theres not that much suffering to get rid of. this question is for people who dont use escaping samsara as a motivating factor for meditation.

andyrobyn
07 Jun 11, 02:24
hi dannythe human, you question became a case of " what if..... and if.... then if.... so if ....." to me on reading it -lol - lots of " if's " there - better to deal with what actually is I have found, my life has improved significantly in doing so, hope that is of some help in answering the question,

warm wishes

daverupa
07 Jun 11, 02:59
Samsara, by which I take you to mean being reborn over and over again in this life, in that life, and so on - does this actually cause you suffering? No - the thought of it does -- the thought "I will be reborn, alas". This is contact, condition for (unpleasant) feeling, & ultimately condition for dukkha. This suffering you experience on account of personality-view is precisely the suffering addressed by the Dhamma.

dannythehuman
07 Jun 11, 03:15
so you meditate daily everyday for the rest of your life to attain something that you might not reach in this life (nibanna), so that it will eliminate what exactly?? i guess if your lucky enough you could attain stream winner in one lifetime, but even then what would be the benefit of that? i guess you wouldnt be able to yell at people or feel miserable when you stub your toe, hardly seems like the result is worth the effort.

dannythehuman
07 Jun 11, 03:17
Samsara, by which I take you to mean being reborn over and over again in this life, in that life, and so on - does this actually cause you suffering? No - the thought of it does -- the thought "I will be reborn, alas". This is contact, condition for (unpleasant) feeling, & ultimately condition for dukkha. This suffering you experience on account of personality-view is precisely the suffering addressed by the Dhamma.

your saying being born and reborn in different realms doesnt cause suffering? how so?

Deshy
07 Jun 11, 03:19
theres not that much suffering to get rid of. this question is for people who dont use escaping samsara as a motivating factor for meditation.

This very question is "suffering". You suffer fear and doubt of not having clear comprehension. Try to detect the moment to moment mental suffering you go through in a lifetime : Fear, doubt, anxiety, anger, frustration, sadness, depression, lust, greed... This is suffering and this is what the Buddha taught how to get rid of. Nibbhan is completely eradicating all kinds of mental suffering.

Deshy
07 Jun 11, 03:21
so you meditate daily everyday for the rest of your life to attain something ...

You don't meditate to attain. You meditate to let go.

dannythehuman
07 Jun 11, 03:36
i can see why it would help people like for the sense of well being, and for the joy of meditating, so what is your motivation to meditate?

Deshy
07 Jun 11, 03:39
i can see why it would help people like for the sense of well being, and for the joy of meditating, so what is your motivation to meditate?

The joys of letting go

Deshy
07 Jun 11, 03:41
There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).[1] This, just this, is the end of stress.

Nibbana Sutta

Aloka
07 Jun 11, 04:06
i can see why it would help people like for the sense of well being, and for the joy of meditating, so what is your motivation to meditate?

To understand mental dissatifaction and stress and let go of the past and future...and to have more clarity and awareness in the here and now.

stuka
07 Jun 11, 05:19
im wondering what is the point of practicing so much meditation if your only goal is to eradicate the suffering present in this life

"Only"? Interesting.

Your question is loaded with so man assumptions.



10. “Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters upon and abides in the second jhana, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration. With the fading away as well of rapture, he abides in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, he enters upon and abides in the third jhana, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

11. “This is my instruction, brahmin, to those bhikkhus who are in the higher training, whose minds have not yet attained the goal, who abide aspiring to the supreme security from bondage. But these things [also] conduce both to a pleasant abiding here and now and to mindfulness and full awareness for those bhikkhus who are arahants with taints destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached their own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge.”




which might never happen at all

If one does not see results and a great diminishing of suffering here and now -- and more and more over time -- one is doing it wrong.




and if it does happen it will happen later on in life

Who says? The Buddha said that one could eradicate suffering in as little as seven days.



and if it even happens theres not that much suffering to get rid of.

Spoken like someone who has not suffered, or who has little-to-no understanding of what "suffering" is.



this question is for people who dont use escaping samsara as a motivating factor for meditation.

"Samsara", for the Buddha, is suffering.

stuka
07 Jun 11, 05:27
so you meditate daily everyday for the rest of your life to attain something that you might not reach in this life (nibanna),

That sort of assumption comes from one who has no understanding of Nibbana as the Buddha taught it.



so that it will eliminate what exactly??

All kinds of bad mental habits that contribute misery to oneself and cause one to spread misery to others. Some find this to be quite a significant thing, and much more significant and important than superstitions and pie-in-the-sky appeals to ego.



i guess if your lucky enough you could attain stream winner in one lifetime,

Where are you getting this assumption from?



but even then what would be the benefit of that?

You mean your teachers don't tell you this? I would fire them!



i guess you wouldnt be able to yell at people or feel miserable when you stub your toe, hardly seems like the result is worth the effort.

So tell me, what's in it for you?

stuka
07 Jun 11, 05:37
your saying being born and reborn in different realms doesnt cause suffering? how so?

I always get a great chuckle at the folks who pretend that this idea of being alive is this great miserable thing, and that imagining and fantasizing about being reborn as something else or someone else is this great terrible thing. They are lying to themselves. We all want to be alive. If we didn't want to be alive, we would all kill ourselves and be done with it. Even a person who is suffering badly from cancer, in extreme pain, doesn't want to die, even the ones who commit suicide. They just want to live without pain. I find it to be simply outrageous and preposterous to claim that anyone wants off this proposed "merry-go-round" of reincarnation. If it were true, that would be just fine by me. I like being alive, even with all its warts, it's great. I would welcome reincarnation, whatever the "rulez". Dung Beetle? Intestinal parasite? Sure. Give it to me. I wouldn't want to get off the merry-go-round. To think that people really do is a fundamentally absurd and stupid idea.

Deshy
07 Jun 11, 06:03
The Nibbana sutta sounds odd :dontknow:

daverupa
07 Jun 11, 11:31
I always get a great chuckle at the folks who pretend that this idea of being alive is this great miserable thing, and that imagining and fantasizing about being reborn as something else or someone else is this great terrible thing. They are lying to themselves. We all want to be alive. If we didn't want to be alive, we would all kill ourselves and be done with it. Even a person who is suffering badly from cancer, in extreme pain, doesn't want to die, even the ones who commit suicide. They just want to live without pain. I find it to be simply outrageous and preposterous to claim that anyone wants off this proposed "merry-go-round" of reincarnation. If it were true, that would be just fine by me. I like being alive, even with all its warts, it's great. I would welcome reincarnation, whatever the "rulez". Dung Beetle? Intestinal parasite? Sure. Give it to me. I wouldn't want to get off the merry-go-round. To think that people really do is a fundamentally absurd and stupid idea.

There is such a thing as craving for becoming. There is such a thing as craving for non-becoming.

stuka
07 Jun 11, 14:19
There is such a thing as craving for becoming. There is such a thing as craving for non-becoming.

Yes. But it is funny, every person I have asked straight up if they really wanted to "get off the merry-go-round" they believe in has said no. And it doesn't stop there -- Element reminds us that at the end of one of his books Buddhaghossa declares his wish to be reborn into this-and-such a plane of existence. It is as if this whole business about believing in a roundabout of samsara is just driven by a secret craving for immortality. Which is fine, but one might as well just put on a red dot and be done with it...

Esho
07 Jun 11, 14:22
"get off the merry-go-round"

Hi stuka,

What means that? :(

Esho
07 Jun 11, 14:27
Buddhaghossa declares his wish to be reborn into this-and-such a plane of existence.

:shocked:

Honestly stuka, I really do not care any more about the stuff of a coming back whatever kind of sophisticated craving we want... you know... the stream of consciousness... the mixed "mitotic" process of the khandas... the karma fate... etc,. Since dropping that away the practice of the teachings have become more reliable. IMHO.

;)

Esho
07 Jun 11, 14:31
Buddhaghossa declares his wish to be reborn into this-and-such a plane of existence.

The Brahmajala Sutta touches this aspect. I will quote later it but in the section of the net of views he (the Buddha) depicts how a venturous rebirth, even in a venturous realm, this will comes to an end so to start again with the same story. If one wishes to apply it for after life or for a single life it applies perfectly with the experience of endless dukkha.

;)

stuka
07 Jun 11, 14:58
Hi stuka,

What means that? :(

http://propertymortgageinvestment.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/merry-go-round.jpg

By that I am referring to the idea of "samsara" as continuously being reincarnated.

stuka
07 Jun 11, 15:00
:shocked:

Honestly stuka, I really do not care any more about the stuff of a coming back whatever kind of sophisticated craving we want... you know... the stream of consciousness... the mixed "mitotic" process of the khandas... the karma fate... etc,. Since dropping that away the practice of the teachings have become more reliable. IMHO.

;)

I agree perfectly. It baffles and amuses me that folks like the original poster here, who believe in such things, insist that we should believe in it too.

Esho
07 Jun 11, 15:00
By that I am referring to the idea of "samsara" as continuously being reincarnated.

Thanks!

:hands:

hajurba
02 Aug 11, 05:53
Ha-ha! Sooo funny! Quite entertaining. Reminds me somehow of the movie Life of Brian.
Rebirth, Reincarnation, Re-Appearance ...dung beetles etc. ( I adore dung beetles) The only visible truth about this which we have is that there is an endless reappearance of sheer innumerable varieties of living things... A sparrow looks like a sparrow again and again through the millennium past up to present time. ...
What does it tell us?

andyrobyn
02 Aug 11, 10:19
Suffering inherently exists within the life of each human being ....

that is the point.