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Aloka
02 Jun 11, 23:50
I saw this sutta mentioned somewhere - and thought I'd post it here to see if anyone
had anything to say about it.





AN 9.31 -Anupubbanirodha Sutta: Step-by-step Stopping


"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step stoppings. Which nine?

"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped.

When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have been stopped.

When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stopped.

When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped.

When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stopped.

When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stopped.

When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stopped.

When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stopped.

When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perceptions & feelings [mental fabrications] have been stopped.

"These are the nine step-by-step stoppings."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.031.than.html




:hands:

Element
03 Jun 11, 06:25
perceptions & feelings =/= mental fabrications

Aloka
03 Jun 11, 06:46
What does this mean?


When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped.


Does it mean breathing becomes unnoticeable ?

Element
03 Jun 11, 06:49
probably

in-and-out breaths =/= bodily fabrications

in-and-out breaths = bodily fabricator

;D

BuckyG
03 Jun 11, 06:55
What does this mean?



When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped.

Does it mean breathing becomes unnoticeable ?

Hi A-D,
It means you stop diaphragm breathing.
May you be happy.
bucky

Aloka
03 Jun 11, 07:01
It means you stop diaphragm breathing.


Could you elaborate further and give a source of this information, please?

BuckyG
03 Jun 11, 07:09
Could you elaborate further and give a source of this information, please?

Hi A-D,
Sure. I don't know if you consider personal experience a source, but that's how I know. Diaphragm breathing is not the only way for your body to get oxygen. The skin also breathes. I think I have physiological sources if you're still curious.
May you be well.
bucky

Element
03 Jun 11, 07:17
I don't know if you consider personal experience a source, but that's how I know.
Thanks for personally declaring you are a non-returner.

:bow:

Element
03 Jun 11, 07:21
It means you stop diaphragm breathing.
However, many meditators believe they have stopped breathing when in fact their minds have sloth & torpor. Their minds are too unclear to be aware of the breathing. These meditators then run around declaring they personally have attained the 4th jhana.

Pages 165 - 167 of this book (http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati.pdf) discuss this misperception.

;D

BuckyG
03 Jun 11, 07:30
Could you elaborate further and give a source of this information, please?

Hi Aloka,
In the section on "Jhana," Ajaan Lee gives a standard explanation in his book Keeping the Breath In Mind:


4. The fourth jhana.... The breath property is absolutely quiet, free from ripples, crosscurrents, and gaps.... The breath, which forms the present, is still, like the ocean or air when they are free from currents or waves.... The mind is neutral and still; the breath, neutral and still; past, present, and future are all neutral and still. This is true singleness of preoccupation, focused on the unperturbed stillness of the breath. All parts of the breath in the body connect so that you can breathe through every pore. You don't have to breathe through the nostrils, because the in-and-out breath and the other aspects of the breath in the body form a single, unified whole.... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#jhana
Ajaan Geoff (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) and Gil Fronsdal also speak of it frequently when they teach anapanasati.
May you feel safe.
bucky

Aloka
03 Jun 11, 07:41
Hi Aloka,
In the section on "Jhana...

OK, thanks for giving a reference.;D

Aloka
03 Jun 11, 08:13
Pages 165 - 167 of this book (http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati.pdf) discuss this misperception.

;D

Page 168 also seems relevant.

Deshy
03 Jun 11, 09:35
Sometimes, you "feel like" the breathing has stopped when your awareness of the breath goes off even slightly. As most of you already know, as you meditate, the breath becomes shorter and smoother and it becomes increasingly challenging to focus on this ever so slight breath. At that stage, if your mind moves from the breath even slightly, you lose your meditation object. Losing the meditation object is a common problem, at least for me. ;) Sometimes meditators, specially if you are a beginner, perceive this incorrectly as if the breathing has stopped and you have entered higher absorption when in fact you haven't. It happens because your mindfulness has slipped.

andyrobyn
03 Jun 11, 10:20
Sometimes, you "feel like" the breathing has stopped when your awareness of the breath goes off even slightly. As most of you already know, as you meditate, the breath becomes shorter and smoother and it becomes increasingly challenging to focus on this ever so slight breath. At that stage, if your mind moves from the breath even slightly, you lose your meditation object. Losing the meditation object is a common problem, at least for me. ;) Sometimes meditators, specially if you are a beginner, perceive this incorrectly as if the breathing has stopped and you have entered higher absorption when in fact you haven't. It happens because your mindfulness has slipped.

Yes, I was to make a similar comment from my experience .... focusing on the breath differs from analysing our breathing - lol.

srivijaya
03 Jun 11, 11:35
focusing on the breath differs from analysing our breathing - lol.
Absolutely. It's more like an awareness. If there is mental articulation like: "Is this a long or short, subtle or coarse breath? Am I in xyz jhana now?" It's a sure indication that jhana is not present.

stuka
03 Jun 11, 16:52
Sri, have you read Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book Anapanasati: Mindfulness with Breathing? I mean the full version, most of which is at Buddhanet in . pdf format?

Esho
03 Jun 11, 16:54
Sri, have you read Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book Anapanasati: Mindfulness with Breathing? I mean the full version, most of which is at Buddhanet in . pdf format?

Do you recomend it stuka? Yesteday I downloaded it. ;D

stuka
03 Jun 11, 17:00
Yes. The last four chapters are missimg from that, but I can dig them up for you.

Esho
03 Jun 11, 17:03
Yes. The last four chapters are missimg from that, but I can dig them up for you.

Thanks stuka!

:hands:

srivijaya
03 Jun 11, 17:25
Sri, have you read Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book Anapanasati: Mindfulness with Breathing? I mean the full version, most of which is at Buddhanet in . pdf format?

A long time ago, along with many other (varied) accounts by numerous authors. I have also found the suttas to be very helpful. Do you have any particular point in mind?

stuka
03 Jun 11, 20:12
No, I didn't, I just thought it was a very good and thorough analysis. :-)

Element
03 Jun 11, 20:50
Yes. The last four chapters are missing from that, but I can dig them up for you.
The last four chapters are here: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati-Fourth_Tetra.pdf

Imo, the last four chapters are excellent & essential reading but I would not recommend the whole book. My view is it is too cumbersome and too technical.

My impression is large parts of it were adapted from Buddhaghosa's Vissudhimaggga and/or the Commentaries.

However, once one starts reading the book, one will decide on its value.

;D

Esho
03 Jun 11, 22:11
Thanks Element... seem those chapters are at the core of what has to be done... ;)

Element
03 Jun 11, 22:45
Hi

The book I am referring to as too cumbersome is this one: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati.pdf

;D

Esho
03 Jun 11, 23:17
OK... it is a different one... The one I downloaded is "Mindfulness with Breathing. Unveilling the Secrets of Life: A Manual for Begginers"
;D

BuckyG
04 Jun 11, 04:36
Hi Aloka-D, Sri, Kaarine & Deshy:
Regarding the relationship of jhana to the "stages" of awakening, I've all ready made my opinion about it clear here:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/showthread.php?853-Jhana-amp-Stream-Entry/page2&highlight=Jhana+Stream+Entry

Post #19.

May all being find the causes of true happiness within.

Aloka
04 Jun 11, 05:26
OK... it is a different one... The one I downloaded is "Mindfulness with Breathing. Unveilling the Secrets of Life: A Manual for Begginers"
;D

Is this the link you used, Kaarine?

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Br eathing.htm

Esho
04 Jun 11, 14:35
Is this the link you used, Kaarine?


Yes Dazz... ;)

Esho
04 Jun 11, 14:41
Hi Aloka-D, Sri, Kaarine & Deshy:
Regarding the relationship of jhana to the "stages" of awakening, I've all ready made my opinion about it clear here:

I do not do Jhana; I still practice Zazen. I can not tell about Jhana. ;D

daverupa
04 Jun 11, 15:35
I do not do Jhana; I still practice Zazen. I can not tell about Jhana. ;D

Which is unfortunate, given that Pali "Jhana" -> Sanskrit "Dhyana" --> Chinese "Ch'an" --> Japanese "Zen". Jhana starts out with a clear definition, and at the end of the chain "What is Zen?" becomes a koan. Alas!

:heart:

Esho
04 Jun 11, 16:03
Which is unfortunate, given that Pali "Jhana" -> Sanskrit "Dhyana" --> Chinese "Ch'an" --> Japanese "Zen". Jhana starts out with a clear definition, and at the end of the chain "What is Zen?" becomes a koan. Alas!

:heart:

Well in Zazen we are not about stages... which I see Jhana has. At the end I think Zazen is about Samatha and Vipassana or at least the instruction I have been given equates more with the later. ;D

Element
04 Jun 11, 21:58
Which is unfortunate, given that Pali "Jhana" -> Sanskrit "Dhyana" --> Chinese "Ch'an" --> Japanese "Zen". Jhana starts out with a clear definition, and at the end of the chain "What is Zen?" becomes a koan. Alas!
So do you practise jhana?

:green:

daverupa
05 Jun 11, 02:24
So do you practise jhana?

:green:

I fail to see how this is relevant to the OP.

:heart:

Element
05 Jun 11, 05:11
I fail to see how this is relevant to the OP.
I had the same failure of sight when reading post #30 .

So what is the "clear defintion" being referred to?

:green:

BuckyG
05 Jun 11, 05:18
Hi all,
In my humble opinion, asking if someone practices jhana is a question that should be a Members Only topic.
May all beings be truly happy.
bucky

Element
05 Jun 11, 05:25
I don't know if you consider personal experience a source, but that's how I know.
Hi

I read your "humble opinion" above.

It is my opinion personal declarations of jhana should not be discussed anywhere.

What is the benefit of entering into such delusional discussions based in grasping (upadana)?

:green:

Deshy
05 Jun 11, 05:28
Hi all,
In my humble opinion, asking if someone practices jhana is a question that should be a Members Only topic.
May all beings be truly happy.
bucky

Why? Any particular reason why you can talk about jahan experiences but others cannot ask about it outside members only forum?

Aloka
05 Jun 11, 05:33
Hi all,
In my humble opinion, asking if someone practices jhana is a question that should be a Members Only topic.
May all beings be truly happy.
bucky


I can't see the relevance of this statement, sorry....and I tend to agree with Element's comment regarding personal declarations about jhana, or indeed about any perceived personal 'attainments'.

BuckyG
05 Jun 11, 05:54
I can't see the relevance of this statement, sorry....and I tend to agree with Element's comment regarding personal declarations about jhana, or indeed about any perceived personal 'attainments'.

I (usually) don't read Element's posts. Are these so-called "personal declarations about jhana or...perceived personal 'attainments?'" in a post Element made here?

Aloka
05 Jun 11, 06:00
I (usually) don't read Element's posts. Are these so-called "personal declarations about jhana or...perceived personal 'attainments?'" in a post Element made here?

Lets not have yet another derailment with this kind of nonsense, please.

Thread closed