View Full Version : Motivation Without Reincarnation?
AnonOfIbid
20 Apr 11, 00:05
The doctrine of reincarnation seems to me to have strong motivational effects for those seeking awakening. I've heard many teachers say belief in this doctrine is not required for attainment. QUESTION: are their any alternative/replacement doctrines and/or instructions to fill the motivational void left for those who struggle with or outright reject reincarnation?
Hi Anon,
Do you mean "reincarnation" as the Tibetan believe? Or reincarnation as "rebirth".
Rebirth/reincarnation is basically a morality teaching. However, why would one not be motivated about morality and need replacement doctrines without this teaching? As for seeking awakening, surely the possibility of freedom from dukkha in the present life is enough motivation !
;D
AnonOfIbid
20 Apr 11, 04:25
the latter
AnonOfIbid
20 Apr 11, 04:26
Rebirth/reincarnation is basically a morality teaching. However, why would one not be motivated about morality and need replacement doctrines without it? As for seeking awakening, surely the possibility of freedom from dukkha in the present life is enough motivation !
;D:up2:
londonerabroad
20 Apr 11, 16:12
It depends on whether your motivation is for you to escape suffering in this life or to work towards the alleviation of the suffering of all sentient beings - these are two different motivations. Once liberation from suffering is achieved so too is liberation from rebirth.
Actually theyre not two different motivations. When one understands suffering oneself, helping other living beings if possible and feeling kindness and compassion towards them, is a natural outcome of one's practice and understanding.
Anything connected to future lives is just speculation.
Oooh but speculation is as delicious as the spaghetti meatball sauce, no? lol
Oooh but speculation is as delicious as the spaghetti meatball sauce, no? lol
....but not if one is a vegetarian ! :bunny:
Actually theyre not two different motivations.
Yes, of course. Once dukkha has been understood, it is implied the understanding of annata and then there is no such thing as "my" and "their" dukkha. To see mine and yours is again, a delusion.
Maybe the different motivations could be: 1) To have a metaphysical and cosmological road-map for an everlasting wandering self... or; 2) A teaching to understand the nature of unsatisfactoriness that is at the root of human nature.
...your motivation is for you to escape suffering in this life...
If the issue is about the motivation of awakening, it sounds odd that the teachings of the Buddha are understood as an escape. To escape suffering is at the root of drugs, alcohol, sex and also the idea of eternity... At the end nobody can escape from suffering. I think the teachings of the Buddha far from escaping are about understanding the nature of unsatisfactoriness and to practice toward its cessation.
This is unsubstantiated...but I've heard that being in awareness of the present moment is a pretty good way of taking one's mind off questions of what happens next. If the present doesn't motivate you, when will?
The practice of a moral, just and virtuos path which in many ways echoes my beliefs about justice and ethics, which presents a view of existence that is both beautiful and consistent with scientific theories, which asks practicioners to strive for what I consider good, which alleviates suffering, which allows for as much or as little metaphysical reflection as the practicioner is able to comprehend....this is my motivation. Rebirth and nebbana are still abstract to me. However, I find that adhering to the path itself changes one's approach, and my slow trek through ancient texts has already paid off in so many ways.
The practice of a moral, just and virtuos path which in many ways echoes my beliefs about justice and ethics,
Yes Mariner, I think that the path of the Buddha demands the highest standard of ethical conduct so to keep in the practice of the teachings. It is the necessary mind ecosystem so to develop insight and tranquility; but it is not enough; it is not about being just good. The Teachings of the Buddha are very demanding and it is seen in their concreteness pointing direct to what has to be done. Depends on each of us to assume this.
The doctrine of reincarnation seems to me to have strong motivational effects for those seeking awakening. I've heard many teachers say belief in this doctrine is not required for attainment. QUESTION: are their any alternative/replacement doctrines and/or instructions to fill the motivational void left for those who struggle with or outright reject reincarnation?
My opinion:
The wish to end a cycle of reincarnation shows one has an aversion to life.
It also shows one has not comprehended the 1st Noble Truth. One has not comprehended the suffering of ego or attachment.
Contrary to Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation, the 1st Noble Truth states: "In summary, attachment to the five aggregates is suffering".
The 1st Noble Truth does not state: "The five clinging aggregates are suffering". The five aggregrates are not suffering; nor do they cling. (Only one aggregate, when under the influence of ignorance, clings.)
The Buddha himself said the doctrine of reincarnation sides with mental defilement (asava) and attachment (upadi) but motivates morality. (see MN 117 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html))
Even when the Buddha used spiritual language (which is subject to the listener's interpretation) in one or two discourses (eg. SN 15.3 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html)), he emphasised actual suffering rather than life itself:
...the tears you have shed while cycling & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing
The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while cycling & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Long have you experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss....
Naturally the doctrine of reincarnation is not required for attainment. What is attainment, apart from:
(1) realisation of impermanence, resulting in dispassion & liberation
(2) realisation of unsatisfactoriness, resulting in dispassion & liberation
(3) realisation of not-self, resulting in dispassion & liberation
(4) realisation of void insubstantialness, resulting in dispassion & liberation
(5) realisation of the Four Noble Truths, resulting in dispassion (the cessation of craving) & liberation (Nirodha/Nibbana)
I cannot see any alternative/replacement doctrines and/or instructions to fill some 'motivational void' in those who struggle with or outright reject reincarnation because reincarnation cannot provide a proper foundation for motivation & realisation to begin with.
The Buddha said the condition for faith in the Buddha-Dhamma is suffering (see SN 12.23 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html)).
Suffering is not reincarnation. Reincarnation is not suffering.
Suffering is mental torment, mental afflication, mental disatisfaction, mental unhappiness, mental unease, etc.
Suffering is crying & weeping. Suffering is the tears shed over loss.
When the Buddha taught reincarnation, he taught it as a wholesome means to overcome suffering. The Buddha did not teach reincarnation as something to be ovecome.
Please be clear on this point. For those without realisation of impermanence, not-self, etc, they require a method suitable for them to manage their suffering in relation to death and the death of loved ones. Belief in reincarnation is this method.
With metta
;D
"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
Phena Sutta: Foam (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html)
Please be clear on this point. For those without realisation of impermanence, not-self, etc, they require a method suitable for them to manage their suffering in relation to death and the death of loved ones. Belief in reincarnation is this method.
Thanks Element,
:hands:
Phena Sutta: Foam
A very interesting post Element - and Phena Sutta is one of my favourites !
;D
"To be well", however you parse that phrase, seems like plenty of motivation for me. ^^
It depends on whether your motivation is for you to escape suffering in this life or to work towards the alleviation of the suffering of all sentient beings - these are two different motivations. Once liberation from suffering is achieved so too is liberation from rebirth.
At that point, rebirth becomes a choice, and those devoted to ending suffering for all sentient beings make the choice to be reborn. In the Mahayana tradition one seeks Enlightenment not so much to reach an end to one's own suffering, but to have the skillful means to bring about an end of suffering for others. That's a very different motivation, indeed.
This is unsubstantiated...but I've heard that being in awareness of the present moment is a pretty good way of taking one's mind off questions of what happens next. If the present doesn't motivate you, when will? Being fully in the present moment is a powerful practice when appropriate. But unless one is a monastic and has all one's needs taken care of, living constantly in the present is impossible. One needs to anticipate the future in order to be able to function; to buy the groceries for the week, to save for one's retirement, and to see to other practical matters. So much more so if one has children.
One needs to anticipate the future in order to be able to function; to buy the groceries for the week, to save for one's retirement, and to see to other practical matters. So much more so if one has children.
Sometimes the present moment is not well understood. Being present is about that. When eating, eat; when walking, walk; when going to the groceries, go to the groceries; when doing a save for retirement, do a save for retirement. Through meditation we learn to bring concentration and careful observation into daily life. Careful observation about our thoughts in the moment they arise. When we are not present then we have to breath and being aware of our breath brings us again into the present moment. It is needed practice and a huge amount of patience with ourselves and the others.
;D
Being fully in the present moment is a powerful practice when appropriate. But unless one is a monastic and has all one's needs taken care of, living constantly in the present is impossible. One needs to anticipate the future in order to be able to function; to buy the groceries for the week, to save for one's retirement, and to see to other practical matters. So much more so if one has children.
The present moment is all that exists. I have a family and I do the shopping and cooking and yes, you are right, one needs to think about the future. Of course this doesn't mean one has to ponder what happens to us after we die, but of course you are right about functioning. But one does not have to be a monastic. When one is cooking or shopping or driving watching the kids, being in awareness of the present, as much as possible, is not only possible---sometimes it is required! :)
When one is cooking or shopping or driving watching the kids, being in awareness of the present, as much as possible, is not only possible---sometimes it is required! :) haha, I agaree, fojiao! Driving is one of the most "zen" activities I can think of--you really have to be constantly focussed in the moment, or else! No distractions allowed. My point about monastics was simply to say that they can afford to be in the moment all their waking hours, because food and lodging are provided for them, so they don't need to plan ahead for anything. They have the luxury of spending their entire lives in the "now".
The doctrine of reincarnation seems to me to have strong motivational effects for those seeking awakening.
I am not sure that is so. Such doctrines seem to motivate those who fear what they do not know, and who are susceptible to superstitions, stories, and speculative views. One who believes these stories and buys in to the idea that certain behaviors will bring rewards or punishment in a supposed afterlife would find them motivational in this regard. But as far as motivating one to pursue the sort of awakening that the Buddha offered, such doctrines are irrelevant speculative views.
I've heard many teachers say belief in this doctrine is not required for attainment.
First we had "awakening", and now we have "attainment". But the Buddha himself pointed out that belief in such doctrines was not necessary to attain the sort of awakening he taught, in MN 117.
QUESTION: are their any alternative/replacement doctrines and/or instructions to fill the motivational void left for those who struggle with or outright reject reincarnation?
There is the Buddha's Noble teachings: the Noble Eightfold Path, the Four Noble Truths. These teachings, as the Buddha pointed out in MN 117, are for one one who would realize his awakening and rise above superstitious and speculative bases for growth.
If you are looking for a non-superstitious basis for morality and ethics, the Buddha's Veludvareyya Sutta (Discourse to the People of Bamboo Gate) is the place to go.
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