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Esho
08 Apr 11, 16:04
Hello all,

The realization of non self is an important step for the understanding and practice of the Noble Truths. Then, the practice of the Noble Truths are the gate to the cessation of Dukkha. In them we can find all the ingredients needed to cook its insight and realization. The Noble Truths, at least the first three of them are the basic building blocks that includes the reference of the five aggregates which lead us into the realm of the non self.

It happened that the firs important insight was to experience deeply that all "things" are by nature unsatisfactory because by nature all things are impermanent. There is a deep unsatisfactoriness in our lives because the way we relate with things. With all things. This opens the way to understand how we have to relate with things... including such a thing as "our-selve(s)" where our "self" is by nature impermanent and thus unsatisfactory if we try to cling to it. And indeed it happens. When we cling to the aggregates, when we cling to the idea of a solid self then there is Dukkha. [The] Self has to be treated as such a thing as the mundane things out there.

Any Comments?

srivijaya
08 Apr 11, 17:34
I find dukkha and 'self' to be within the same sensation. It's a kind of tightness which is pronounced, for me, when I am angry or agitated. If I can release this tightness, then there is an opening out into clarity and peace.

Thoughts and feelings form a vortex which becomes ever tighter, as we become the 'victim' of whatever.

In samhadi you see that none of this is yours. You don't have to own it. It is not-self.

That's my experience, though it's not scholarly in any way.

Esho
08 Apr 11, 19:38
Thanks sriv,


It's a kind of tightness which is pronounced, for me, when I am angry or agitated.

Yes... and with the anger and agitation comes a myriad of mental formations and a myriad of felt needs that were not there before.


If I can release this tightness, then there is an opening out into clarity and peace.

Yes, sure... and then the needs, desires, anguish, defilement's, complexities vanishes giving room for a feeling of needlessness with which comes that pace and clarity.


It is not-self.

Yes... I think I make a mistake in the title; instead of non-self I should have wrote not-self.


That's my experience, though it's not scholarly in any way.

I appreciate that. ;)

Mariner
08 Apr 11, 19:45
One of the things that makes interpretation of Buddha's words more difficult is the inability to read Pali. By the time things get to my English reading eye, I'm sure many persons in may places have put their own stamp on the interpretation. When it comes to Anatta, I've chosen a temporary linguistic short cut: Anatta is "no atman." No 'permanent' self. Or, another way of approaching this is to accept this as evidence of Buddha's atheism. No atman. No eternity in the arms of a divine force. Then, concluding that this subject could not be resolved, I stopped worrying about it.

Esho
08 Apr 11, 19:53
No eternity in the arms of a divine force.

The experience of this, and knowing that there were somebody who clearly point out this fact without any sort of deceitful philosophical entanglements, has been deeply liberating. This gives room to found a meaningful deepness in the sole act of contemplation. ;)

Aloka
09 Apr 11, 08:11
A reference from the Dhammapada Ch 20 .... the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are mentioned in verses 277, 278, and 279 - together with the repetition of "this is the path to purity":






275 Of all the paths the Eightfold Path is the best; of all the truths the .Four Noble Truths are the best; of all things passionlessness is the best: of men the Seeing One (the Buddha) is the best.

276.This is the only path; there is none other for the purification of insight. Tread this path, and you will bewilder Mara.

275. Walking upon this path you will make an end of suffering. Having discovered how to pull out the thorn of lust, I make known the path.

276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara.

277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.


continued here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.20.budd.html

Aloka
09 Apr 11, 08:29
I think its always good to remind ourselves about what was said in the suttas. Regarding not-self, the Buddha said :





"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

from SN 22.59 - Pa├▒cavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren

(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)

Continued here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html

Esho
09 Apr 11, 13:57
Thanks Dazz,

The Dhammapada quote is beautifull!

;)