View Full Version : Philosophical Riddle, Zen Koan
Recently in conversation elsewhere the popular philosophical riddle came up, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?"...
After some thought, it turns out this might as well be a Zen koan. Thoughts? ;)
srivijaya
08 Feb 11, 14:53
Thoughts?
No, no, no, no way ;)
JadeRabbit
08 Feb 11, 15:42
KATZ!
Katz? No idea what that means. :)
The event produces sound waves, which operate whether or not an ear is within range.
JadeRabbit
08 Feb 11, 16:18
no tree, no hearing, no thought, no correct answer
Katz? No idea what that means. :)
One day long ago, after sitting Zen, Seung Sahn Soen Sa and his students spoke to each
other. Soen Sa picked up the bell on the floor and said, “This is a bell. If you say this is a
bell, you are attached to name and form. If you say it is not, you are attached to emptiness. Is
this a bell or not?”
One student shouted, “KATZ!”
Soen Sa said, “Do the other students have an answer?”
A second student said, “The bell is my mind; my mind is the bell.”
“Next answer.”
A third student grabbed the bell and rang it.
“Are there no other anwers?”
A fourth student said, “From out of the bell, a wooden chicken cries, ‘Cock-a-doodle-doo!’”
“Are there more?”
The fifth student said, “The sky is high, the ground is wide.”
“More?”
“Now the light is on. The room is bright,” said the sixth student.
Soen Sa said, “Everyone gave a different answer,” and turning to the seventh student asked,
“What is your answer?”
The last student did not speak; he only sat.
Soen Sa said, “Seven students have now answered. One of the answers has both killed and
revived all people. It is freedom. Which answer is this? Next time, tell me.”
With this, the students bowed and went to the kitchen for tea.
What is the correct answer? Maybe it's whatever comes from your direct experience without the need for thinking. As soon as you think, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, you would be wrong. Aren't riddles exactly that? Unanswerable?
Hi Cloud,
Thoughts...
Well I think that the tree do not need me to make noise when it falls down. It is a curious post because it made me remember the New Age idea of the object observed by a subject and how the subject alters the observed object, a very popular one in some cuantum physics books from where there comes the inference that the world exists only if you think about it. Anyway, we all know that things come and go independently if we are aware of that or not. We are not so important for the Universe to keep evolving.
Just a few ideas,
;)
andyrobyn
14 Feb 11, 08:37
It does still fall, yet without someone with sense organs nearby to perceive of the sound no sound will by definition be heard - so as with how most important questions end up being answered for me, it is both yes and no
Cloud
If the tree is in a forest there will always be other trees to hear it fall.
Robert
plogsties
14 Feb 11, 19:06
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?"...
If a man is standing under the tree and screams as he realizes it will be his death but nobody hears him scream, did he scream?
There is no correct answer? The correct response is ... mental silence?
It's mentioned in Wikipedia -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
plogsties
15 Feb 11, 13:16
no sound will by definition be heard
It depends on how you define "sound" If "sound" is the physical phenomenon of a dilation/rarefaction wave travelling through space then, of course, there is a "sound". If "sound" means only an entity sensed by humans - the height of egoism, I think - then no, there is no "sound". Of course, it could be that the statement is not intended to have anything to do with either interpretation of sound and cannot be read literally, in which case this sort of analysis is meaningless, which would likely be the case if it is a koan.
Thanks Dazzle for the link! On that page click on the "Buddhist perspectives" link.
The first thing it brings up is not getting engaged in subject-object duality.
It's not about defining sound at all, though that's one of the three common answers to the riddle.
There isn't really an actual answer, as in math. Like many Zen koans, the issue is with the question itself!
andyrobyn
15 Feb 11, 20:04
no sound will by definition be heard
It depends on how you define "sound" If "sound" is the physical phenomenon of a dilation/rarefaction wave travelling through space then, of course, there is a "sound". If "sound" means only an entity sensed by humans - the height of egoism, I think - then no, there is no "sound". Of course, it could be that the statement is not intended to have anything to do with either interpretation of sound and cannot be read literally, in which case this sort of analysis is meaningless, which would likely be the case if it is a koan.
Hi plogsties .... " heard " is the defining word rather than sound I think here - as we are humans, answering the question, and the question asks if no-one is around to hear it, to me it fails as a succesful koan ... that is all
srivijaya
15 Feb 11, 20:38
I agree Andy. I much prefer "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" It's just as unanswerable but perhaps not (quite) as irritating. :P
To say anything is to miss the point. Koans are unsolvable. The function of the koan is to point you directly to your true nature.
If i said yes it makes a sound. duality.
If i said no it doesn't a sound. duality.
What this koan is pointing to is the idea of an observer. For the tree(object) to exist you need a subject to hear it.
It's pointing to our awareness. For there to be a noise there needs to be something aware of that noise prior and after that noise.
Think about noise like this. Silence. Tree falls and makes noise. Silence.
There has to be something aware of the tree falling and making the noise.
If there wasn't something aware then there would be no tree and no noise.
Descartes said, "I think therefore I am"
This is implying that thinking creates a notion of self.
In Korean Zen we say that before thinking, you and the universe are one.
All koans point to your true nature, which is the awareness behind everything.
Hope this makes sense.
The sound of one hand clapping. It is the sound of silence. The silence is you. The silence is where every noise goes back to and without the silence we wouldn't have sound. Think about musical notes. The spaces in-between the notes along with the notes create music.
In zen this koan would bring you back to your true nature. I am the silence. I am the silent awareness that exist prior to all noise.
The purpose of a koan is to point directly to your true nature. In korean zen we ask, "Who are you!?" and if you're honest with yourself you will respond with "I don't know." Or one could say I am Albert, but that would be a name given to you. Who are you before that? So all koans are basically like this question: Who are you!?
The koan is like an arrow shooting directly to your true nature. You ask who am i and you feel the koan from the neck down.
The purpose isn't to find an answer. The point is to hit a wall. This wall is the sense of not knowing. In a way it is a nothingness.
In korean zen we keep this not knowing mind while we walk, eat, work, etc.
This not knowing mind is your true nature.
When we surrender and open up to this not knowing we become aware of what we truly are. There is no path or goal because you already are what you are looking for. The seeker is sought.
The ego is nothing but grasping to concepts and emotions.
To have no stance or position is to be free from duality. To speak is to create duality.
When you keep don't know mind, you cut ego automatically.
Hope this makes sense.
Zen is very simple. Zen isn't even zen. Words miss the mark.
Be the silence. Don't push or pull. Where do you stand?
plogsties
18 Feb 11, 13:37
"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
As a peculiar aside and off topic, one hand clapping can produce sound waves of very low frequency - below the human threshold - by causing the appropriate displacement of air (molecules). So, in a purely technical sense this question does make sense. But this is, of course, irrelevant to the statement made.
srivijaya
18 Feb 11, 13:47
without the silence we wouldn't have sound.
Nicely put taiyaki.
namaste
Kris
Words miss the mark.
Very true.........and welcome taiyaki ! ;D
But this is, of course, irrelevant to the statement made.
Yes it is. Please lets try to stay on topic if we can, Plogsties dear! ;)
To say anything is to miss the point.
I think you have missed the point... :P
welcome taiyaki !
Yes, wellcome taiyaki!
;D
Thank you! Nice to meet you all.
Maybe, this relates to the thought, "What is it that falls." But it really only matters if the tree wants to fall, and one is there to help the tree achieve its aim.
See that there are only mind and form, experience and that which is experienced, two sides of the coin.
Sound is an experience, caused by the contact of vibrations with the eardrum and the subsequent arising of sound-consciousness in the mind.
That's one way of mulling this over. =)
Yes it makes a sound; creatures will hear/feel the sound/vibration but ... does nature make a mental note or record this in their memories as an event? No ... It both exists and does not exist at the same moment because it does not matter unless one decides it is to exist beyond that moment in time.
srivijaya
24 Mar 11, 07:54
unless one decides it is to exist beyond that moment in time.
Hi Sage,
I don't quite get that?
:hands:
I am hinting at a concept that I am just beginning to understand (totality) so, I will approach it from an other angle...
You must perceive a distinction for it to either exist or not exist. This distinction of this or that, only exists within the mind. To name it or claim it as an event, i.e. I heard or he heard or this happened or we've noticed, is to make a distinction. To witness is to separate one fraction from the whole. The whole, in existence, may contain the event but the event can never contain the whole of existence. Its a totality thing ...
I am sure there are more answers to explain besides seeing it as totality but, that's where my brain went to ...
does a tree fall if there is no one there to witness it?
does a tree fall if there is no one there to witness it?
Yes. Impermanence is a feature of existence. There are thousands of events in the universe that do not need of our direct observation of them to occur.
Yes. Impermanence is a feature of existence. There are thousands of events in the universe that do not need of our direct observation of them to occur.
I was making a light hearted joke :)
I was making a light hearted joke :)
Oh OK! ;)
srivijaya
25 Mar 11, 08:24
I am sure there are more answers to explain besides seeing it as totality but, that's where my brain went to ...
Thanks for that. I think I get it now.
“Existence and nonexistence
are the undulating pulse of Tao.”
(Lao Tzu)
It has just come to my awareness that I may be more Taoist than Buddhist...
The way I understand it, Tao carries the same meaning as Suchness/Reality/Emptiness, it's reality itself. We have different words that are all pointing to the same thing, and Tao is one that I've heard used by Buddhists. That it points to the underlying reality of all experience, the pulsing existence and nonexistence (arising and passing), makes it perfect to be integrated with Buddhism... so it was. Hence Ch'an/Zen was born.
One of my first insights were not with Buddha but with the Tao. The Buddha came later on. Tao resonate deeply. It open a different understanding of life, things and existence. At moments Tao teachings, at others the Buddha ones... sometimes this, sometimes that... ;)
srivijaya
28 Mar 11, 09:59
It has just come to my awareness that I may be more Taoist than Buddhist...
I've yet to work out what I am today!
Thanks for the understanding guys :)
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