A little Seung Sahn

[JadeRabbit]

Hi all, I'm really enjoying the teachings of Seung Sahn at the moment.

What would your answer be?


Look. Hear.
See the moktak. Hear the sound.
You see clearly. You hear clearly.
Are the moktak, the sound, and your mind alike or not alike?
If you say they are alike, I will hit you thirty times.
If you say they are not alike, I will hit you thirty times.
Why?
From the letters of Seung Sahn: http://kwanumzen.com/

btw, I have already answered ;)

[plogsties]

What would your answer be?
Let me be concrete a bit. Mind cannot be seen. Mind cannot be heard. Mind cannot be "observed" in any way by our senses. Hence moktak/sound and mind cannot even be compared, let alone declared to be alike.

[srivijaya]

mmm... bet that's not it plogsties. Not that I've got the faintest idea what the answer is. :whiteflag:

Where's Kaarine when we need her?

Okay looks like you'll have to hit me with your big Zen stick. I've got it coming, that's for sure :P

[Esho]

Hi JadeRabit,


Where's Kaarine when we need her?

Upss... Not sure about the correct answere... :P

In a typical Soto school the answere will be... "Just Sit"! :meditate:

Lets try this:

When you see just be the "seeing"... when you hear, just be the "hearing"... In that way mind is neither alike nor not-alike.

Hope not to be hitted :deadhorse:

:flower:

[JadeRabbit]

Hmm...I can see there's not enough Zennies around for this one, never mind.....moving on :washing:

[srivijaya]

never mind.....moving on
So we'll never find out then?

Oh dear. Just like when I read that Koan about a girl (sent by the patroness of a young monk) to kiss him and ask him how he felt. He said something like; I feel like a dead stone next to a frozen lake in winter.

Upon hearing this the patroness declared that he was worthless and should be kicked out.

Well, what should he have said? He had renounced all thoughts of sensuality. Not bad for a young bloke.

20 years I've been chewing that one over. :coffee:

[millyone]

Hi all, I'm really enjoying the teachings of Seung Sahn at the moment.

What would your answer be?


Look. Hear.
See the moktak. Hear the sound.
You see clearly. You hear clearly.
Are the moktak, the sound, and your mind alike or not alike?
If you say they are alike, I will hit you thirty times.
If you say they are not alike, I will hit you thirty times.
Why?
From the letters of Seung Sahn: http://kwanumzen.com/

btw, I have already answered ;)



I will give my answer before I read anyone else's - just to test myself.

My answer, after considering the question carefully is:
I would remain silent, in order to avoid getting hit at all.

[JadeRabbit]

I have no idea what the answer is. I'm just a beginner and in no position to say if any of you are right or wrong ;D

Seung Sahn might suggest that as soon as you open your mouth to speak (or use your fingers to type!), you are already wrong. The point is to cut off all thinking.

@millyone, Seung Sahn would say not speaking is also wrong! He would hit you anyway, as he would know you were trying to avoid answering the question.

@srivijaya, I like the answer to that koan - I wouldn't have been able to give the same. A koan I've been working on for ages is from Ken Jones; "Nothing matters, everything matters" - it just messes me up :lol:

[millyone]

You surely contradict yourself? By keeping silent I am implying there is no answer. So why would I be hit? The two criteria for being hit are to say one thing or the other, since I would say nothing I would not deserve to be hit.

[JadeRabbit]

Here's another letter. I don't know if it will help.


One day long ago, after sitting Zen, Seung Sahn Soen Sa and his students spoke to each
other. Soen Sa picked up the bell on the floor and said, “This is a bell. If you say this is a
bell, you are attached to name and form. If you say it is not, you are attached to emptiness. Is
this a bell or not?”
One student shouted, “KATZ!”
Soen Sa said, “Do the other students have an answer?”
A second student said, “The bell is my mind; my mind is the bell.”
“Next answer.”
A third student grabbed the bell and rang it.
“Are there no other anwers?”
A fourth student said, “From out of the bell, a wooden chicken cries, ‘Cock-a-doodle-doo!’”
“Are there more?”
The fifth student said, “The sky is high, the ground is wide.”
“More?”
“Now the light is on. The room is bright,” said the sixth student.
Soen Sa said, “Everyone gave a different answer,” and turning to the seventh student asked,
“What is your answer?”
The last student did not speak; he only sat.
Soen Sa said, “Seven students have now answered. One of the answers has both killed and
revived all people. It is freedom. Which answer is this? Next time, tell me.”
With this, the students bowed and went to the kitchen for tea.

Oriental medical doctrine says that if the body is hot with fever, it is good to take hot medicine. If
the body is having chills, it is good to take cold medicine. Therefore, if you have many thoughts,
practicing a “many thinking” koan will eventually arrest those thoughts.

[JadeRabbit]

You surely contradict yourself? By keeping silent I am implying there is no answer. So why would I be hit? The two criteria for being hit are to say one thing or the other, since I would say nothing I would not deserve to be hit.

Does this help?


One day long ago Seung Sahn Soen Sa asked all of his students, “One plus two equals what?”
One student replied, “One plus two equals three.”
Soen Sa said, “No, one plus two is zero.”
“Why zero? If you add two apples to one apple you will have three apples.”
“If I eat one apple and two apples, then there are no apples.”
“This isn’t right.”
“You say that one plus two equals three. I say one plus two equals zero. What is right?”
The student did not answer.
Soen Sa hit him and said, “A lion grabs and claws people; the dog only runs away with a
bone.”
On another day, Soen Sa asked the students the same question: “What does one plus two
equal?”
One student shouted, “KATZ!”
“Is this the truth?”
“No, it is not the truth.”
“What is the truth?”
“One plus two equals three.”
“I understand that you are a blind dog, but now I see a keen-eyed lion.”

[millyone]

I would answer that 'it is the illusion/concept of a bell, just as everything else is'.

No idea if that is anywhere like the right answer, I love these riddles but I am also a complete beginner!

[JadeRabbit]

No idea if that is anywhere like the right answer, I love these riddles but I am also a complete beginner!

Seung Sahn would say "only have 'don't know' mind" very good!

My personal view is that they are just fun ways to check ourselves and our thinking, nothing heavy :cheers:

[millyone]

I like these, send some more!

[JadeRabbit]

Please have a look here ->

http://kwanumzen.com/teaching_letters/

:hands:

[millyone]

Thank you, that is great. I shall have a look and a think through those. ;D

[srivijaya]

What becomes of the fist when the hand is unclenched?

[millyone]

It disappears.

[inji]

"what is this?"

[taiyaki]

what is a cup when it is no longer a cup?

[Aloka]

Where is my nice cuppa tea? :bunny:

[JadeRabbit]

mmm.....tea...

[Esho]

Where is my nice cuppa tea?

Another Zen story that came into my mind...


Ikkyu, the Zen Master, was very clever even as a boy. His teacher had a precious teacup, a rare antique. Ikkyu happened to break this cup and was greatly perplexed. Hearing the footsteps of his teacher, he held the pieces of the cup behind him. When the master appeared, Ikkyu asked: "Why do people have to die?"
"This is natural," explained the older man.
"Everything has to die and has just so long to live."
Ikkyu, producing the shattered cup, added: "It was time for your cup to die."

Zen Flesh, Zen Bones

;D

[Esho]

what is a cup when it is no longer a cup?

... no longer a cup or...

Neither a cup nor "no longer a cup".

:P

[Cloud]

It was never a cup, except as an agreement we humans upheld to communicate. The broken cup was always in the unbroken cup, indeed empty and nothing of itself to begin with.