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OceanKing
27 Sep 13, 03:37
Hi, all. I'm looking for opinions on this conception I had concerning desire in regards to other people. My thoughts are as follows:

Say I am having sensual desires for a girl for example. My mind is running a mile a minute thinking about her, fantasizing about spending time with her, etc. In this situation, being a typical person, I might extrapolate from these feelings that I am in love or a similar thing. Fair enough so far?
The question is this: In this situation, do I love the real girl herself or just this girl in my head that I have fabricated as a part of the desire? Is the mind running a whole stage show, creating these actors all within itself but then telling itself that the girl in the play is the real girl out there? Is this a cover up of it's own deceit leading me to believe that I love the real girl that is out there when in reality I am just entrenched in self generated sensual desire and fantasy?

In other words , is it not correct to conclude that the object of my desires is something entirely created within the mind and has absolutely zero relation to the real person out there whom the fabrication is based upon? Wouldn't I simply be taking the object of desire in the mind and telling myself that it is the real girl out there thereby convincing myself that I have feelings for her when, in fact, I only have feelings for my fabricated mind-girl and am convincing myself that fabricated mind-girl is the real girl herself?

Any and all thoughts appreciated.

May we all understand the true causes of happiness and act upon them.

With Metta,

OK :hands:

srivijaya
27 Sep 13, 17:12
In other words , is it not correct to conclude that the object of my desires is something entirely created within the mind and has absolutely zero relation to the real person out there whom the fabrication is based upon?

Hi OceanKing,
Good observation and you have pretty much nailed the process there. It also extends in the same manner towards those we dislike and to those to whom we are neutral. They are a "certain kind" of person - in our opinion. Generalizations work in the same way. I've never been to the USA, for example, but I have an imagined one peopled by inhabitants I would expect to find there, in my mind.

I've hardly ever met a real American who has matched my pre-set notions. This upsets the model for a while but it soon returns to it's previous 'comfortable' mode.

When I first read the "Identity Projection" bit of the title, I wondered if it was about the identity we project of ourselves. I know you mean an identity we project about others, but I guess our own projected identity enables us to be someone who likes/dislikes the object of our attention.

Element
27 Sep 13, 20:57
1. The question is this: In this situation, do I love the real girl herself or just this girl in my head that I have fabricated as a part of the desire? 2. Is the mind running a whole stage show, creating these actors all within itself but then telling itself that the girl in the play is the real girl out there? 3. Is this a cover up of it's own deceit leading me to believe that I love the real girl that is out there when in reality I am just entrenched in self generated sensual desire and fantasy? 4. In other words , is it not correct to conclude that the object of my desires is something entirely created within the mind and has absolutely zero relation to the real person out there whom the fabrication is based upon? 5. Wouldn't I simply be taking the object of desire in the mind and telling myself that it is the real girl out there thereby convincing myself that I have feelings for her when, in fact, I only have feelings for my fabricated mind-girl and am convincing myself that fabricated mind-girl is the real girl herself?
My answer to each of these well-articulated questions is: 'Yes'

The 'fabricated mind-girl' versus 'the real girl'. One of life's natural mysteries & part of the journey of 'getting to know her'.

Even the girl has this mystery of knowing the real girl.

Regards ;D

OceanKing
27 Sep 13, 21:36
Thanks for your input, srivijaya.

I'm glad that you say that I pretty much nailed the process. This understanding came blazing into openness yesterday and clarified so many things. I am thankful for the cessation of dukkha that this insight brings. :hands:

Now, I see exactly what you mean about your imagined USA. We do this same process with all things, don't we: like you said about those we hate and those we are neutral towards? Everything we look at and interact with is us interacting with our imagined objects and forcing those identities onto the actual objects themselves, right? We struggle with people, objects, activities, phenomena, etc forcing these imagined identities onto them, behaving as if we know the real things through and through. We cause ourselves and others suffering by imposing our expectations and assumptions upon them when in reality they will never measure up to our imaginings. So our entire lives really are spent playing with ourselves, so to speak; trapped in our own little worlds never seeing through the veil of our fabrications? Is this the root of dissatisfaction that generates dukkha? And about your comment on our own projected identity, do we not fabricate a version of ourselves that we equate as the real us as well? Isn't that the whole aggregate perception? We make up a self and say that it is this form or that feeling or this consciousness etc., slap expectations upon it, become clung to it and then suffer when things don't work the way we wanted?

Any more insight you can bring to this is much appreciated :hands:

OK

OceanKing
27 Sep 13, 22:00
Sorry, Element. You apparently replied as I was writing in response to srivijaya.

I suppose all I can say to your post is that you seem to have a very strong ability to say very much without really saying anything at all, lol. If you could be so kind as to clarify your thoughts on the matter it would be much appreciated. If there is something in your words I need to be discerning then I think I'm going to need a little more time :) I'm kind of seeing something there but not sure what to make of it as of yet.

Thank you nonetheless. :hands:

OK

clw_uk
27 Sep 13, 22:27
You have followed feeling via the path of desire, due to giving attention to your perceptions of "her"


You then focus on her "beauty"

Yet if she is actually beautiful in of herself, is an unknown. You can say she is by following desire, and I could say no by following aversion.


We add a layer of perception to her form, and then suffer as a consequence. Me by following aversion and you by following attraction.

The trick is to have the same experience when looking at her when you do when looking at, let's say, a rock.

clw_uk
27 Sep 13, 22:31
You can relate it to the old sceptical argument


X appears as pleasing to me, but as displeasing to another

Therefore we can either

A) Affirm that X's nature cannot be known

Or

B) Withhold judgment as to if X is pleasing or displeasing in its nature

clw_uk
27 Sep 13, 22:34
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html

srivijaya
27 Sep 13, 22:39
Is this the root of dissatisfaction that generates dukkha?

In my experience it's 'believing' in it, assenting to it and 'owning' it, that is the root. Dropping it is the way to freedom.
:hands:

Element
28 Sep 13, 02:43
If you could be so kind as to clarify your thoughts on the matter it would be much appreciated.
Sure. I suppose any interaction with another is a type of 'relationship' and, being so, 'relationship' is always a 'two-sided' matter of mutual interests, needs, goals & desires. You may have 'designs' about the girl but what are her reciprocal 'designs'. This is part of getting to know, the real girl. Regards ;D

OceanKing
30 Sep 13, 18:30
Thank you all very much for your insights srivijaya, Element and clw_uk.

I have been very ill since Friday night and still am. I just wanted to take the time to thank you all and say that your comments have helped a lot in clarifying my view. I am very grateful to have this outlet for asking these questions and to have such understanding and knowledgeable compatriots on the path. Your guidance is appreciated.

With Metta,

OK

:hands:

Aloka
30 Sep 13, 21:13
I have been very ill since Friday night and still am.



I hope you get well soon, OceanKing :hands: