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clw_uk
29 Oct 10, 13:41
Every once in a while we are greeted with Suttas like this one




"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html


Now I find this sutta out of line with the rest of the Buddhas teaching (a long with a few others). I find it a contradiction of the what the Buddhas own Noble teaching. Also I find it illogical, since it seems to suggest that the future embryo is already coming to be by events happening now




How do you view these suttas?

Element
29 Oct 10, 21:39
Hi Craig

The whole sutta you have referred to is a very important sutta. Here, the Buddha makes the subtle distinctions about what are not the causes of happiness & suffering and then goes on to summarise what he teaches, namely, the elements, the sense spheres, the eighteen feelings [as objects of mindfulness & wisdom to prevent craving] & the four noble truths.

;D

Element
29 Oct 10, 21:46
Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti; okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ

Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form.


Channa1 [pp. of chad, see chādeti1] 1. covered J iv. 293 (vāri˚); vi.432 (padara˚, ceiling); ThA 257. <-> 2. thatched (of a hut) Sn 18. -- 3. concealed, hidden, secret J ii.58; iv.58. -- nt. channaŋ a secret place Vin iv.220.

Channa2 [pp. to chad (chand), chandayati, see chādeti2] fit, suitable, proper Vin ii.124 (+paṭirūpa); iii.128; D i.91 (+paṭirūpa); S i.9; M i.360; J iii.315; v.307; vi.572; Pv ii.1215 (=yutta PvA 159).


Upādāya (adv.) [ger. of upādiyati] -- 1. (as prep. with acc.) lit. "taking it up" (as such & such), i. e. (a) out of, as, for; in phrase anukampaŋ upādāya out of pity or mercy D i.204; PvA 61, 141, 164. -- (b) compared with, alongside of, with reference to, according to D i.205 (kālañ ca samayañ ca acc. to time & convenience); DhA i.391; VvA 65 (paŋsucuṇṇaŋ); PvA 268 (manussalokaŋ). The same use of upādāya is found in BSk., e. g. at Divy 25, 359, 413; Av. Ś i.255. -- 2. (ic same meaning & application as upādā, i. e. in neg. form first & then in positivé abstraction from the latter) as philosophical term "hanging on to", i. e. derived, secondary (with rūpa) Vbh 12, 67 etc.; Nd1 266. Usually as anupādāya "not clinging to", without any (further) clinging (to rebirth), emancipated, unconditioned, free [cp. BSk. paritt -- anupādāya free from the world Divy 655], freq. in phrase a. nibbuta completely emancipated S ii.279; A i.162; iv. 290; besides in foll. pass.: Vin i.14 (a. cittaŋ vimuccati) 182 (id.); S ii.187 sq.; iv.20, 107; v.317; Dh 89 = S v.24 (ādānapaṭi -- nisagge a. ye ratā); Dh 414; Sn 363; It 94 (+ aparitassato).


Gabbha [Vedic garbha, either to *gelbh, as in Lat. galba, Goth. kalbo, Ohg. kalba, E. calf, or *gṷe bh, as in Gr. delfu/s womb, adelfo/s sharing the womb, brother, de/lfac young pig; cp. *gelt in Goth. kilpei womb. Ags. cild, Ger. kind, E. child. Meaning: a cavity, a hollow, or, seen from its outside, a swelling] 1. interior, cavity (loc. gabbhe in the midst of: angāra˚ J iii.55); an inner room, private chamber, bedroom, cell. Of a Vihāra: Vin ii.303; iii.119; iv.45; VvA 188; 220; -- J i.90 (siri˚ royal chamber); iii.276; Vv 785 (=ovaraka VvA 304); DhA i.397; Miln 10, 295. See also anto˚. <-> 2. the swelling of the (pregnant) womb, the womb (cp. kucchi). ˚ŋ upeti to be born Dh 325=Th 1, 17= Nett 34, 129; ˚ŋ upapajjati to be born again Dh 126; gabbhā gabbhaŋ . . . dukkaŋ nigacchanti from womb to womb (i. e. from birth to birth) Sn 278; gabbhato paṭṭhāya from the time of birth J i.290, 293. As a symbol of defilement g. is an ep. of kāma A iv.289, etc. -- 3. the contents of the womb, i. e. the embryo, foetus: dasa māse ˚ŋ kucchinā pariharitvā having nourished the foetus in the womb for 10 months D ii 14; dibbā gabbhā D i.229; on g. as contained in kucchi, foetus in utero, see J i.50 (kucchimhi patiṭṭhito) 134; ii.2; iv.482; M i.265; Miln 123 (gabbhassa avakkanti); DhA i.3, 47; ii.261. -- Pv i.67; PvA 31; gabbho vuṭṭhāsi the child was delivered Vin ii.278; itthi -- gabbho & purisa˚ female & male child J i.51; gabbhaŋ pāteti to destroy the foetus Vin ii.268; apagatagabbhā (adj.) having had a miscarriage Vin ii.129; mūḷha -- gabbhā id. M ii.102 (+visatā˚); paripuṇṇa -- gabbhā ready to be delivered J i.52; PvA 86; saññi˚ a conscious foetus D i.54=M i.518=S iii.212; sannisinna -- gabbhā having conceived Vin ii.278.


Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into, opportunity for rebirth S ii.66 (nāmarūpassa); iii.46 (pañcannaŋ indriyānaŋ); Pug 13 (= okkanti nibbatti pātubhāvo PugA 184); Kvu 142 (nāmarūpassa); Miln 123 (gabbhassa).


hoti Bhavati to become, to be, exist, behave etc. (cp. Nd2 474= sambhavati jāyati nibbattati pātu -- bhavati). -- I. Forms. There are two bases used side by side, viz. bhav˚ and (contracted) ho˚, the latter especially in the (later) Gāthā style and poetry in general, also as archaic in prose, whereas bhav˚ forms are older. On compounds with prepositions, as regards inflection, see Geiger, P.Gr. §§ 1312, 1513; and cp. anubhavati, abhibhavati, abhisaŋ˚, pa˚ (also pahoti, pahūta), pari˚, vi˚, saŋ˚. -- 1. Pres. ind. bhavāmi Sn 511 & homi J iii.260; 2nd bhavasi & hosī M iii.140; Vv 8420; 3rd bhavati freq.; Sn 36 (where Nd2 474 with v. l. BB of Sn reads bhavanti; Divy p. 294 also reads bhavanti snehāḥ as conjecture of Cowell's for MSS. bhavati); Dh 249, 375; & hoti freq

Okkanti (f.) [fr. okkamati] entry (lit. descent), appearance, [b]coming to be. Usually in stock phrase jāṭi sañjāti o. nibbatti M iii.249; S ii.3; iii.225; Nd2 257; Pug A 184. Also in gabbh˚ entry into the womb DA i.130.

Okkantika (adj.) [fr. okkanti] coming into existence again and again, recurring. Only as epithet of pīti, joy. The opposite is khaṇika, momentary Vism 143 = DhsA 115 (Expositor 153 trsls. "flooding").

Okkamati [o + kamati fr. kram] lit. to enter, go down into, fall into. fig. to come on, to develop, to appear in (of a subjective state). It is strange that this important word has been so much misunderstood, for the English idiom is the same. We say ʻ he went to sleep ʼ, without meaning that he went anywhere. So we may twist it round and say that ʻ sleep overcame him ʼ, without meaning any struggle. The two phrases mean exactly the same <-> an internal change, or developement, culminating in sleep. So in Pali niddā okkami sleep fell upon him, Vin i.15; niddaŋ okkami he fell on sleep, asleep, DhA i.9; PvA 47. At It 76 we hear that a dullness developed (dubbaṇṇiyaŋ okkami) on the body of a god, he lost his radiance. At D ii.12; M iii.119 a god, on his rebirth, entered his new mother's womb (kucchiŋ okkami). At D ii 63 occurs the question ʻ if consciousness were not to develop in the womb? ʼ (viññāṇaŋ na okkamissatha)


"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

;D

Element
29 Oct 10, 22:36
Channaṃ is an interesting word. I am not sure what it means or its context.

But following the broad guidance found in the Pali Dictionary (http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html), the sutta excerpt may possibly be something like:



Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti; okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ

"In a concealed place [channaṃ], from the coming to be [hoti] of the elements [dhātūnaṃ] having been taken up [upādāya] and appearing (developed) [āvakkanti] in the womb [gabbhassa], the appearing (development) [okkantiyā] of mind-body [nāmarūpaṃ] comes to be [sati] ."


Sounds like normal reproduction to me, like when I was eight years old and watched movies about sperm, ovum, sexual organs and things at school.

Please note, the sutta does not say consciousness appears in the womb. The sutta refers to the six elements, namely, earth, wind, fire, water, space & consciousness appearing or developing in the womb.

Kind regards

;D

clw_uk
02 Nov 10, 13:13
Thank you Element

On reviewing the Sutta I read it as thus


'"There are these four noble truths" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?


"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'


This is describing how the aggregates come to be. Much in the same way as MN 38 describes it


When feeling comes about, it will be the result of ignorant contact


The Buddha then explains the process of how dukkha comes to be in its entireity



"And what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with what is not loved is stressful, separation from what is loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. This is called the noble truth of stress.

"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.


I noticed that the teaching on Dependent Co-Arising is a different teaching to how you get the aggregates


metta