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SeeknShinjin
28 Mar 13, 19:22
I have read a couple of Sutta's where (Upon the Break-up of the body, after death) is mentioned, it is confusing to me because after that line it is stated "he is headed for a good destination or a bad destination". See example below. So it sounds like the Buddha is talking about actual Rebirth. Can you clear this up for me?



"That which among men is a hundred years, Visakha, is one night and day of the devas of the Thirty-three, their month has thirty of those days, their year twelve of those months; the lifespan of the devas of the Thirty-three is one thousand of those heavenly years.[13] Now here a certain woman or man, having entered on the Uposatha undertaken with the eight practices, at the break up of the body, after death, may arise to fellowship with the devas of the Thirty-three — such a thing indeed is known, Visakha. It was in connection with this that I have said: Miserable is kingship over men compared with heavenly bliss.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.043.khan.html



I will look for another example but this is what I've found for the moment.

Here is a Sutta to better describe:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html

Is it upaya?

Gassho,
SS

Element
28 Mar 13, 23:22
I have read a couple of Sutta's where (Upon the Break-up of the body, after death) is mentioned, it is confusing to me because after that line it is stated "he is headed for a good destination or a bad destination". See example below. So it sounds like the Buddha is talking about actual Rebirth. Can you clear this up for me?
hi SS

this is a stock phrase found in the Pali scriptures, which is open to interpretation

the word for 'body' here is 'kaya' (rather than 'rupa')

the word 'kaya' literally means 'group' or 'collection'

it has the same meaning in English as the term 'body of work' or 'collection of work'

for example, the five collections of the suttas are called Nikaya

but in Pali it can also appear to refer to physical body

in later teachings, it was used to refer to rupa kaya (physical group) and nama kaya (mental group)

in Mahayana, there are the terms nirmana-kaya, sambhogakāya and dharmakāya,

some Pali teachings that include the word 'kaya' (translated as 'body' or 'group') are as follows:


Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies...

Anapanasati Sutta


It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

Assutava Sutta


yāyaṃ attabhāvapaṭilābho yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati no parasañcetanā, attasañcetanāhetu tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhā kāyā cuti hoti

...in that acquisition (paṭilābho) of individuality (attabhāva; self-becoming) in which one's own volition (attasañcetanā) operates but not the volition of others (parasañcetanā), it is by reason of their own volition that beings (sattānaṃ) pass away (cuti; shift; vanish) from that group (kāyā)

AN 4.171


Now there is both this body (kaya) and external name-&-form. Here, in dependence on this duality, there is contact at the six senses. Touched by these...one...is sensitive to pleasure & pain.

SN 12.19


Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the world, the origination of the world, the cessation of the world and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the world...

AN 4.45


Atthi kho, brahme, añño kāyo, taṃ tvaṃ na jānāsi na passasi; tamahaṃ jānāmi passāmi. Atthi kho, brahme, ābhassarā nāma kāyo yato tvaṃ cuto idhūpapanno

There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don't know, don't see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here.

Brahma-nimantanika Sutta

Note: In MN 1, the term 'Abhassara' refers to the 1st jhana

In Pali, the word 'rupa', which literally means 'that which will be broken/afflicted', is also used for the physical body:


The four great elements and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.

SN 12.2


The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate

SN 22.48
therefore, the stock phrase is taken by most to refer to the death of the physical body & resultant post-mortem rebirth

however, an alternative interpretation is it can refer to the group (kaya) of elements, aggregates, nama & rupa dhammas, etc, that make up a karmic act

for example, if a person gets drunk on alcohol, their five aggregates become a certain way. they have a particular collection (kaya) of elements & aggregates, i.e., water element, fuelled by alcohol, distorted consciousness & perception, fuelled by alcohol, particularly kinds of feelings, fuelled by alcohol

when that collection or group of elements & aggregates ends, then that person has another collection of elements & aggregates, resulting in their being in pain, hangover, headache, etc

the stock Pali phrases are always referring to performing kamma. I will substitute the word "that" for "the":


There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of that body [of actions], after [the] death [of that kaya], he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of that body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn

for example, when men go to war, they act in certain ways, with a lot of adrenaline. when they return from war, they often suffer mental breakdowns ("hell"). even when they try to heal & do good deeds (i.e., "come to the human state"), they often have mental breakdowns (i.e., return to "hell") and are short lived in the human state

in summary, imo, the language used by Buddha can be interpreted in two ways

kind regards

;D



The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.

(Mn. i. 95)

Element
29 Mar 13, 00:32
Is it upaya?
Imo, no. Instead, imo, it is a description of the reality of karma.

Regards

SeeknShinjin
29 Mar 13, 00:37
Thank you Element,

:hands:

Gassho,

SS

Element
29 Mar 13, 03:16
You're welcome. :hands:

A prominent word with 'kaya' is 'sakkāya', generally translated 'self-identity' or 'self-view'.


http://i45.tinypic.com/35he1ki.png

Bhikkhu Bodhi from his Samyutta Nikaya


Rūpā saddā rasā gandhā, phassā dhammā ca kevalā; Iṭṭhā kantā manāpā ca,

Forms, sounds, tastes, scents, bodily contacts and ideas which are agreeable, pleasant and charming.

All sights, sounds, smells, tastes,
tactile sensations & ideas
that are welcome,
appealing,
agreeable —

yāvatatthīti vuccati. Sadevakassa lokassa, ete vo sukhasammatā;

all these, while they last, are deemed to be happiness by the world with its devas.

as long as they're said
to exist,
are supposed by the world
together with its devas
to be bliss.

Yattha cete nirujjhanti, taṃ nesaṃ dukkhasammataṃ.

But when they cease that is agreed by all to be unsatisfactory.

But when they cease,
they're supposed by them
to be stress.

Sukhanti diṭṭhamariyehi, sakkāyassuparodhanaṃ;

By the Noble Ones, the cessation of the existing body is seen as happiness.

The stopping of self-identity
is viewed by the noble ones
as bliss.

Paccanīkamidaṃ hoti, sabbalokena passataṃ.

This is the reverse of the outlook of the whole world.

This is contrary
to what's seen
by the world as a whole.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.irel.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html

Commentary: The "existing body" (sakkaya) is a term for the five aggregates as objects of grasping.


Rūpā saddā gandhā rasā phassā dhammā ca kevalā Iṭṭhā kantā manāpā ca yāvatatthīti vuccati.
"Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactiles and all objects of mind - Desirable, lovely, agreeable, so long as it's said: 'They are.'"

Sadevakassa lokassa ete vo sukhasammatā Yattha cetonirujjhanti taṃ tesaṃdukkhasammataṃ
“These are considered happiness by the world with its devas; But where these cease, that they consider suffering.

Sukhanti diṭṭhamariyehi sakkāyassuparodhanaṃ Paccanīkamidaṃ hoti sabbalokena passataṃ.
"The noble ones have seen as happiness. The ceasing of identity. This [view] of those who clearly see runs counter to the entire world.

http://www.watnapahpong.com:8080/webboard/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=670

Element
29 Mar 13, 03:59
an interesting word above is 'kevalā', translated as 'all', but actually means 'whole'. 'whole' applied as 'the whole of forms, sounds, tastes, scents, bodily contacts and ideas' gives a clearer sense of 'kaya' or 'sakkāya' (collective whole)

;D

thus, 'sakkāya', which I learned about today, supports my interpretation that 'the body' refers to a collection of aggregates/elements that comprise of a karmic act

Element
29 Mar 13, 06:27
The Pali word "kaya" literally means "group" and can be applied to any collection of things. In this case kaya means specifically the groups of things that are compounded together into a physical flesh-and-blood body. In fact, our English word "body" can also mean group. So we must be careful of what group is meant.

You ought to look for yourselves to see what these bodies are made out of. What organs are there and how many of them? What kind of elements? What sort of parts and components come together into a body? Further, there is one very important component which nourishes the rest of this body, namely, the breath. The breath also called "kaya" in that it is a group of various elements. We will study how this flesh-body is established and how it is related to the breath.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (http://dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Br eathing.htm)


Today, I will like to talk about how people view their own self i.e., the erroneous view of the existence of self (sakkaya dithi). In accordance with the expression

'santo kayo sakkayo', sakkaya is a compound of sa or santa (existing or evident through direct experience) & kaya (nama-rupa aggregates).

Sayadaw U Pandita (http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/pandit10.htm)


From The Dhamma Encyclopedia

Sakkāya: 'existing group'. 'this word is usually translated by 'personality', but according to the commentaries it corresponds to sat-kāya 'existing group', hence not to Sanskrit sva-kāya 'own group' or 'own body'. In the suttas e.g. M. 44 it is said to be a name for the 5 groups of existence khandha : Sakkāya, o Brother Visākha, is said by the Blessed One to be a name for the 5 groups as objects of clinging upādāna-khandha to wit: materiality, feeling, perception, mental constructions and consciousness.
The last quote is interesting, since it mentions what I personally would regard 'sakkāya' to mean, namely, sva-kāya 'own group' or 'own body'. Often, the Commentaries are incorrect. 'Sva-kāya' ('own group') makes more sense than 'sat-kāya' ('existing group').

;D


sakkāyo sakkāyo’ti, ayye, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā?

Pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho, viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Ime kho, āvuso visākha, pañcupādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā.

"Sakkāyo , sakkāyo,' it is said, lady. Which sakkāyo is described by the Blessed One?

There are these clingings to the five aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clung-to-aggregate, feeling as a clung-to-aggregate, perception as a clung-to-aggregate , fabrications as a clung-to-aggregate, consciousness as a clung-to-aggregate. This clinging to the five aggregates is the sakkāyo described by the Blessed One.

MN 44 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html)

Element
05 Apr 13, 23:41
To add, for a friend who emailed me:

the Pali is:

te kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā


Bheda [fr. bhid, cp. Ved. & Class. Sk. bheda in same meanings] 1. breaking, rending, breach, disunion, dissension Vism 64 sq. (contrasted with ānisaŋsa), 572 sq. (with ref. to upādāna & bhava); VbhA 185 (id.); Sdhp 66, 457, 463. -- mithu˚ breaking of alliance D ii.76; J iv.184; Kvu 314. -- vacī˚ breaking of [the rule as to] speech Miln 231. -- sangha˚ disunion in the Sangha Vin ii.203. -- sīla˚ breach of morality J v.163. -- abl. bhedā after the destruction or dissolution in phrase kāyassa bhedā param maraṇā, i. e. after the breaking up of the body & after death: see kāya I. e. & cp. D iii.52, 146 sq., 258; Dh 140; Pug 51. -- 2. ( -- ˚) sort, kind, as adj. consisting of, like J ii.438; vi.3 (kaṭuk' ādi˚); DhA iii.14 (kāya -- sucarit' -- ādi˚ -- bhadra -- kammāni); SnA 290 (Avīci -- ādi -- ˚ niraya).
-- kara causing division or dissension Vin ii.7; iii.173; v.93 (cp. Vin i.354 & Vin. Texts iii.266 for the 18 errors in which the Sangha is brought into division by bhikkhus who are in the wrong); DhsA 29 (aṭṭhārasa bheda -- kara -- vatthūni the 18 causes of dissension).


Paraŋ (param˚) (adv.) [orig. nt. of para] further, away (from); as prep. (w. abl.) after, beyond; absolute only in phrase ito paraŋ from here, after this, further, e. g. KhA 131; SnA 160, 178, 412, 512, 549; PvA 83, 90; also in tato paraŋ J iii.281.
-- parā (f.) [adv. converted into a noun paraŋ+abl. of para] lit. "after the other," i. e. succession, series Vin ii.110; iv.77, 78 (parampara -- bhojana "taking food in succession," successive feeding, see under bhojana, and cp. C. at Vin iv.77, 78 and Vin Texts i.38); D i.239; M i.520; A ii.191 (paramparāya in phrase anussavena p. itikirāya, as at Nd2 151); Bu i.79; J i.194; iv.35 (expld by C. as purisa˚, viz. a series of husbands, but probably misunderstood, Kern, Toev. s. v. interperts as "defamation, ravishing"); Nett 79 (˚parahetu); Miln 191, 276; DhsA 314; SnA 352; DhA i.49 (sīsa˚). -- maraṇā (adv.) after death; usually in combn with kāyassa bhedā p. after the dissolution of the body, i. e. after death S i.231; D i.245; PvA 27, 133; absolutely only in phrase hoti Tathāgato p. D i.188, 192; A v.193. -- mukhā (adv.) in one's absence, lit. with face turned away (opp. sammukhā in presence, thus at J iii.263 where parammukhā corresponds to raho and sam˚ to āvi; PvA 13) D i.230 (parammukhin?); DhA ii.109.


Maraṇa (nt.) [fr. mṛ] death, as ending this (visible) exist- ence, physical death, in a narrower meaning than kālakiriyā; dying, in cpds. death. -- The customary stock definition of maraṇa runs; yaŋ tesaŋ tesaŋ sattānaŋ tamhā tamhā satta -- nikāyā cuti cavanatā bhedo antaradhānaŋ, maccu maraṇaŋ kālakiriyā, khandhānaŋ bhedo, kaḷebarassa nikkhepo M i.49; Nd1 123, 124 (adds "jīvit' indriyass' upacchedo"). Cp. similar defns of birth and old age under jāti and jarā. -- S i.121; D iii.52, 111 sq., 135 sq., 146 sq., 235, 258 sq.; Sn 32, 318, 426 sq., 575 sq., 742, 806; Nd2 254 (=maccu); Pug 60; Vbh 99 sq.; VbhA 100 (defn and exegesis in det., cp. Vism 502), 101 (var. kinds of, cp. Vism 229), 156 (lahuka), 157; DhA iii.434; PvA 5, 18, 54, 64, 76, 96; Sdhp 292, 293. -- kāla˚ timely death (opp. akāla˚); khaṇika˚ sudden death Vism 229.
-- anta having death as its end (of jīvita) Dh 148 (cp. DhA ii.366: maraṇa -- sankhāto antako). -- ânussati mindfulness of death Vism 197, 230 sq. (under 8 aspects). -- cetanā intention of death DhA i.20. -- dhamma subject to death PvA 41. -- pariyosana ending in death (of jīvita, life) DhA iii.111, 170. -- pāra "the other side of death," Np. at Nd1 154 (vv. ll. BB purāpuraŋ; SS parammukhaŋ). -- bhaya the fear of death J i.203; vi.398; Vbh 367. -- bhojana food given before death, the last meal J i.197; ii.420. -- mañca death -- bed Vism 47, 549; ˚ka J iv.132. -- mukha the mouth of d. PvA 97 (or should we read ˚dukkha?). -- sati the thought (or mindfulness) of death, meditation on death SnA 54; DhA iii.171; PvA 61, 66. -- samaya the time of death VbhA 157 -- 159 (in var. conditions as regards paṭisandhi).

Element
06 Apr 13, 00:13
thus

it is important to keep in mind the principle already quoted, which Ajahn Buddhadasa explained in his essay: Two Kinds of Language (http://dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Two_Kinds_of_Language.htm):


The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.

The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.

(Mn. i. 95)
in this thread, I have put forth both supramundane (lokuttara) and mundane (lokiya) interpretations of the word 'kaya' (body; group; collection)

as for the supramundane interpretation of the word 'marana' (death), as found in the Dependent Origination, this is tricker to explain but still theoretically or doctrinally straightforward & logical

in the Dependent Origination, 'aging-&-death' is explained as the 'aging-&-death' of 'beings' (satta), as follows:


Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html)

the supramundane meaning of the word 'satta' (beings), is explained as the coming together of a momentary mental state of craving, attachment, becoming, self-identity, etc, as follows:


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side.

As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter & demolish form and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

Satta Sutta: A Being (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html)
thus, the phrase 'te kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā' has two kinds of meaning in accordance with two kinds of language

on the supramundane (lokuttara) level, it can be interpreted as 'the breaking up of the group of aggregates or elements upon the death of the sense of being created by craving & attachment'

with metta

:peace:

Element
06 Apr 13, 05:39
For example, a 'robber' is a category of 'beings' due to the collection of mental & physical constituants that make up the karmic activity of a robber, with the craving & excitement for plundering

But if that 'robber' is caught & imprisoned, the being of a 'robber' dies and they are reborn in a hellish (lit: destroyed) being of a 'prisoner', with the associated mental cravings of a prisoner

When he is set free, the 'being' of a 'prisoner' dies and he is reborn as another type of 'being' based on the craving of the mind....