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Deshy
12 Oct 10, 14:28
Do you have an online version of this sutta SN12.51 please?

Snowmelt
12 Oct 10, 16:32
If you can read German, there is this: http://www.palikanon.com/samyutta/sam12_60.html. I am sorry if this if of no use to you.

Snowmelt
12 Oct 10, 16:36
Here you go: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/06-Dukkhavaggo-e.html. Hope that helps.

Aloka
12 Oct 10, 17:02
I couldn't find anything Deshy, apart from an extract.

This is a link to 'Kamma - a study guide' at Access to insight. There's an excerpt from SN 12.51 at number 57 at the bottom of the page.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html



"If a person immersed in ignorance fabricates a meritorious fabrication, his consciousness goes on to merit.

If he fabricates a demeritorious fabrication, his consciousness goes on to demerit.

If he fabricates an imperturbable fabrication, his consciousness goes on to the imperturbable.

When ignorance is abandoned by a monk, clear knowing arises.

From the fading of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he neither fabricates a meritorious fabrication nor a demeritorious fabrication nor an imperturbable fabrication.

Neither fabricating nor willing, he is not sustained by anything in the world. Unsustained, he is not agitated.

Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


— SN 12.51

Sobeh
12 Oct 10, 17:46
It's only about two pages in Bodhi's translation, but it's a good one - I'll try writing it up here later on.

Aloka
12 Oct 10, 17:54
I'll try writing it up here later on.



Oh thank you, Sobeh, that's very kind. :up2:


I've taken all the unnecessary posts from the page now.

Sobeh
12 Oct 10, 21:26
Samyutta Nikaya, Nidanavagga, 12. Nidanasamyutta

VI. Suffering (or The Tree)

51 (1) Thorough Investigation

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One... said this:

"Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is making a thorough investigation, in what way should he thoroughly investigate for the utterly complete destruction of suffering?"...

"Here, bhikkhus, when he makes a thorough investigation, a bhikkhu thoroughly investigates thus: 'The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world aging-and-death: what is the source of this suffering, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? When what does not exist does aging-and-death not come to be?'

"As he thoroughly investigates he understands thus: 'The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world aging-and-death: this suffering has birth as its source, birth as its origin; it is born and produced from birth. When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no birth, aging-and-death does not come to be.'

"He understands aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading on that is in conformity with its cessation. He practices that way and conducts himself accordingly. This is called a bhikkhu who is practising for the utterly complete destruction of suffering, for the cessation of aging-and-death.

"Then, investigating further, he thoroughly investigates thus: 'What is the source of this birth, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced?... What is the source of this becoming?... this clinging?... this craving?... this feeling?... this contact?... these six sense bases?... this namarupa?... this consciousness?... these sankharas?...

"Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance generates a meritorious sankhara, consciousness fares on to the meritorious; if he generates a demeritorious sankhara, consciousness fares on to the demeritorious; if he generates an imperturbable sankhara, consciousness fares on to the imperturbable. But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious sankhara, or a demeritorious sankhara, or an imperturbable sankhara. Since he does not generate or fashion sankharas, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done is done, there is no more for this state of being.'

"If he feels a pleasant feeling... painful feeling... neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: 'It is impermanent'... 'It is not held to'... 'It is not delighted in.' ...he feels it detached.

"When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: 'I feel a feeling terminating with the body.' When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: 'I feel a feeling terminating with life.' He understands: 'With the breakup of the body, following exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left.'

"Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would remove a clay pot from a potters kiln and set it on smooth ground: its heat would be dissipated right there and potsherds would be left. So, too, when he feels a feeling terminating with the body... 'mere bodily remains will be left.'

"What do you think, bhikkhus, can a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed generate a meritorious, demeritorious, or imperturbable sankhara?"

"No..."

"When there are utterly no sankharas, with the cessation of sankharas, would consciousness be discerned?"

"No..."

"When there is utterly no consciousness, with the cessation of consciousness, would namarupa be discerned?... would aging-and-death be discerned?"

"No, venerable sir."

"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this, bhikkhus, resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of suffering."

Esho
12 Oct 10, 22:58
If you can read German, there is this: http://www.palikanon.com/samyutta/sam12_60.html. I am sorry if this if of no use to you.


Here you go: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/06-Dukkhavaggo-e.html. Hope that helps.


Samyutta Nikaya, Nidanavagga, 12. Nidanasamyutta

VI. Suffering (or The Tree)

51 (1) Thorough Investigation

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One... said this:

"Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is making a thorough investigation, in what way should he thoroughly investigate for the utterly complete destruction of suffering?"...

You guys are outstanding... :up2:

;)

Element
13 Oct 10, 03:34
"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this, bhikkhus, resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of suffering."


My view is one needs to take care with suttas like this. One needs to thoroughly investigate is actually said.

The sutta does not make much sense really because the translation says at the end: "no feelings will be discerned" but in the middle says: "he feels a pleasant feeling, not delighted in". It also says: "no six sense bases and no contact will be discerned".

The sutta translation not only contradicts itself but contradicts other suttas, which state suffering ends when the "eye sees a form, ear hears a sound, etc".

There is something wrong with this sutta, in its current form.

Sabbaso vā pana viññāṇe asati, viññāṇanirodhā api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ paññāyethā’’ti

The word 'asati' is the same as found in the conditionality formula:

Imasmiŋ sati, idaŋ hoti, imass' uppādā, idaŋ uppajjati; imasmiŋ asati, idaŋ na hoti; imassa nirodhā, idaŋ nirujjhati.

This being, that becomes; from the arising of this, that arises; this not becoming, that does not become: from the ceasing of this, that ceases

I am not sure what it means but the sutta is questionable.

;D

If we continue to read the SN from this sutta, it is as follows:

12:52: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can be clung to, craving increases.

12:53: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, craving increases.

12:58: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of name-and-form.

12:59: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of consciousness.

Bhikkhu Bodhi is stuck on certain words, like "descent". He says consciousness descends into the womb but is not prepared to say "name-and-form" (body-mind) descend into the womb.

Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into, opportunity for rebirth S ii.66 (nāmarūpassa); iii.46 (pañcannaŋ indriyānaŋ); Pug 13 (= okkanti nibbatti pātubhāvo PugA 184); Kvu 142 (nāmarūpassa); Miln 123 (gabbhassa).

There is a difference between the element or aggregate of consciousness and when consciousness becomes "engaged" or is "proliferated".

In 12:59, the Buddha uses the simile of a great tree (consciousness) sustained & nourished by sap (craving), it would stand for a long time (and conversely, that of a man bringing a shovel and basket and cutting down the tree).

The Upaya Sutta can help us here.

;D

Esho
13 Oct 10, 14:26
My view is one needs to take care with suttas like this. One needs to thoroughly investigate is actually said.

As always... thanks Element, ;)

Deshy
13 Oct 10, 15:59
Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would remove a clay pot from a potters kiln and set it on smooth ground: its heat would be dissipated right there and potsherds would be left. So, too, when he feels a feeling terminating with the body... 'mere bodily remains will be left.

Is this bodhi's translation? Didn't see this in metta.lk.

Anyway this seems to be saying that when a feeling is felt it does not manifest into craving and clinging in an awakened person's mind. When the feeling is felt, it just dies and only the bodily remains will be left. Only the sense bases will be left. No attachment. Just like a pot which has been removed from the heat.

Esho
13 Oct 10, 18:43
Anyway this seems to be saying that when a feeling is felt it does not manifest into craving and clinging in an awakened person's mind. When the feeling is felt, it just dies and only the bodily remains will be left. Only the sense bases will be left. No attachment.

Yes... having read it slowly makes me think in what Deshy point out here.

:hands:

Element
13 Oct 10, 19:57
The feeling of feelings with the termination of life is a stock phrase in the suttas. It is also in MN 140 and elsewhere.

For me, it just encourages more non-attachment, when it states: "All that is felt (experienced) will, at death, become cold right there".

Kind regards

;D

Snowmelt
13 Oct 10, 20:21
Is this bodhi's translation? Didn't see this in metta.lk.

Here it is:


18. Like a man taking out a baked pot from the furnace would put it on level ground and its warmth would extinguish there itself and the pieces of the pot would remain. In the same manner knowing he will feel feelings, limited to the body and knowing he will feel feelings limited to life. He will know, when the body breaks up, before the end of life, all disagreeable feelings will be cooled and only the body will remain.

Deshy
14 Oct 10, 15:42
The feeling of feelings with the termination of life is a stock phrase in the suttas.


But it says "he feels a feeling terminating with the body". (at least in the first translation) Not sure whose translation that is.

I think what it means is the entire experience of the feeling like "pain felt through the bodily senses", "pleasure felt through the bodily senses" etc. It is talking about the full experience of the feeling from its arising to its termination (death): "a feeling terminating with the body".

When what is felt is felt, when the experience is over, only the sense bases will remain in an enlightened person. There is no manifestation of greed, hatred or illusion.