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padma
14 Nov 12, 11:04
Hello there,

May I know which verses in Pali Cannon specifically rejects the notion of all-powerful-omnipotent-omniscience-God creator? I have tried looking in the internet, but couldn't really find it. there are some, but they are people's opinions, not taken from Pali Cannon itself. I just want to make sure whether Buddha specifically rejects this, or he is actually silent about it.

Thank you for your help.

Namaste :lol:

padma
14 Nov 12, 11:09
Btw, I know about parable of the arrows. so yes, in this case Buddha states that this question is less important than our suffering. But I just want to know if Buddha rejects the notion in other places. or the notion is simply rejected because it contradicts anatta? Thanx

Element
15 Nov 12, 00:45
what about this?


Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my second righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html

;D

nibbuti
15 Nov 12, 07:25
May I know which verses in Pali Cannon specifically rejects the notion of all-powerful-omnipotent-omniscience-God creator?
Hi padma

In addition to what Element said, it really depends on what is meant by "all".

When people say 'God' is all-powerful, if they know only what is conditioned by worldy affairs as being all there is, than that attribute applies only to worldly affairs.

Also see M 49.

:hands:

mercurial
16 Nov 12, 00:27
Refer to the "Tevigga Sutra". To understand the exact logical process that leads to this conclusion refer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_%28Theravada%29

Pegembara
16 Nov 12, 05:54
"Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my second righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html

.


*This sutta was already mentioned #3*

Admin.

Jason Smith
24 Dec 12, 17:09
These are my own notes paraphrased. The basis of the teaching comes from the 12 links of dependent origination. You can use the 12 links to observe many different phenomenon. There are many ways to apply them and they are cyclic in nature so your starting point may depend on what you are observing. Here they are used to show how the mind works without the need for a supreme creator.

p.81 The 12 links of Dependent origination

The 12 links are:

1.. Ignorance
2. Volitional Action
3. Consciousness
4 Name and form
5. Sense Sources
6. Contact
7. Feelings
8. Attachment
9. Grasping
10. Becoming
11. Birth and
12. Aging and death

The interlocking chain of 12 links demonstrates the entire process of evolution and explains the individual existence in samsara. There is no concept of some kind of central unifying creator around which everything evolves.

There are ever-rotating interlocking chains of 12 links of dependent origination constantly keeping us bound to the wheel of life, which is how out evolution through cyclic existence is explained.

Buddha taught the 12 links in at least two ways:
1. They chart our evolution through cyclic existence from ignorance to karmic volitional acts to consciousness etc
2. In reverse how we escape samsara and reach enlightenment. By bringing an end to ignorance volitional acts are prevented; by preventing volitional acts, consciousness in prevented, etc..
-----
There is a sutta where the Buddha visits a being who is reborn with enormous power in a world that is seemly emtpy of other beings. This being envisions himself as the creator of this place and labeled himself God. The Buddha appeals to the being that he is not alone, and this is not anything but another world and another life for the being. He is still in samsara. Buddha tries to convince the being that he is not God. I have seen this sutta references a few times but I am not sure which one it is or if it is even real. Perhaps someone can shed light on this for me. I remember reading this sutta but not sure what source.
---

The best way to come to term with such issues as Is there a creator god, is to meditate. Once you bring your mind to single pointedness you can then reflect on such issues. Simpler still. insight and wisdom come from living virtuously and from meditating. Do not believe anything until it comes as natural insight to your own mind.

Element
24 Dec 12, 20:12
The interlocking chain of 12 links demonstrates the entire process of evolution and explains the individual existence in samsara.
hi Jason

The original scriptures report they explain suffering, i.e., sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair. This we can confirm for ourselves. But evolution & individual existence, we can only speculate about, in a manner as superstitious as 'God'.


On seeing a form with the eye, he is infatuated with pleasing forms, and gets upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging. From his clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

MN 38

In case we are not sure what these words means, a quote from the scriptures:


And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.

And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.

And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.

MN 141

:crying:

Juniper
27 Dec 12, 02:27
As a new comer to this forum and to these teachings I wanted to write how much I appreciate the posts here. Everyone has provided great information. This is very helpful. Am more familiar with the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali than I am with the Suttas or Dhammapada.

Jayantha
29 Dec 12, 15:13
Hello there,

May I know which verses in Pali Cannon specifically rejects the notion of all-powerful-omnipotent-omniscience-God creator? I have tried looking in the internet, but couldn't really find it. there are some, but they are people's opinions, not taken from Pali Cannon itself. I just want to make sure whether Buddha specifically rejects this, or he is actually silent about it.

Thank you for your help.

Namaste :lol:


It may be more beneficial and more important to observe the processes(thoughts, feelings, mental formations) of your mind that makes you want to search for something that "rejects a creator".. that would be much more useful then to see if the Buddha said anything about it.

the Buddha said that he teaches only Dukkha, and the cessation of Dukkha.. all else is pretty much irrelevant. He also said that thinking about the beginning or end of the universe is likely to make your head explode and is not worth the effort.

Jason Smith
01 Jan 13, 17:25
Belief in an all creator falls under ignorance. It has been suggested that those who have more ignorance should contemplate the law of independent origination as a remedy. Those who know independent origination know the Dhamma.

Element. In regard to my previous post perhaps I should change the word evolution to existence in samsara. One just cant over emphasis the 12 links. Respectfully, would that be more agreeable?

Did the Buddha not give sutta warning against superstition and over reliance on religious rituals? I'm sure that he did but I do not have a reference to the sutta(s) at my fingertips.


Something I would like to pose for future discussion... Gampopa in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation gives a detailed treatise on the 12 links. This is a 800 year old Mahayana text. I would love the opportunity to compare his take on independent origination with that detailed in the original suttas.

Back to the original point of discussion. Is there a creator God? I still think a most elegant answer to this lies with independent origination. Meaning, that Buddha explained that there is no unifying source. Just the 12 links giving rise to our individual kamma that interlocks us all. To be free of our kamma is to be free of samsara, nibbanna.

The mind likes unity, to bring all things down to a cohesive explanation. Bhikkhu Bodhi, wrote a beautiful essay on this regarding the differences between certain Theravada and Mahayana views. Like Jayantha pointed out, The Buddha left alone things that would probably make your head explode while the Mahayana seemed to embrace them. Regarding what Jayantha said, the Sutta titled a Handful of Leaves is one of my favorites.

LINK:
"Dhamma and Non-duality", by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Access to Insight, 4 April 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html

Aloka
01 Jan 13, 17:45
Gampopa in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation gives a detailed treatise on the 12 links. This is a 800 year old Mahayana text.

Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation" is a Tibetan Buddhist text and he was one of the early teachers of the Kagyu lineage (a Kadampa monk who became a student of Milarepa)

He was born in 1079 and died in 1153.

Element
01 Jan 13, 19:50
Element. In regard to my previous post perhaps I should change the word evolution to existence in samsara. One just cant over emphasis the 12 links. Respectfully, would that be more agreeable?
Proabably not.

To propose a mental phenomenon, namely, ignorance, & what it conditions, namely, (the incorrectly translated) volitional formations, can create mind-&-matter, is very much the same as believing in a creator god.

Belief in a creator god believes the will or volitional of this god, created the universe, which is mostly comprised of matter.

Belief that volitional formations create life is essentially the same.

As for the word of 'samsara', there are various understandings of this word, according to what Buddha taught & according that what is commonly believed.

In summary, I continue to hold the view that Dependent Origination is not a substitute theory or belief about creation; nor is 'samsara' a substitute for creation.

Imo, the five aggregates are not 'samsara'. Instead, it is the continued craving & attachment towards the five aggregates that is 'samsara'.

Regards

Element



At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes samsara (cycling). A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are running around & wandering on.

Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

He assumes feeling to be the self...

He assumes perception to be the self...

He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

Gaddula Sutta: The Leash (1) (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.099.than.html)

andyrobyn
01 Jan 13, 20:59
For me, questions about creator god/s tend not to be helpful for my practice. It is more in terms of locus of control rather than it being a taboo subject. Element covers it well in the post above.

Element
01 Jan 13, 21:51
Did the Buddha not give sutta warning against superstition....
Possibly. But how is what I posted related to superstition & how is what you posted unrelated to superstition?


Something I would like to pose for future discussion... Gampopa in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation gives a detailed treatise on the 12 links. This is a 800 year old Mahayana text. I would love the opportunity to compare his take on independent origination with that detailed in the original suttas.
This may be a fruitful exercise but I would suggest to 1st understand the 12 links detailed in the original suttas, given you appear to be making an assumption you already understand this.


I still think a most elegant answer to this lies with independent origination.
I have already suggested there is no answer here, whatsoever.


Meaning, that Buddha explained that there is no unifying source.
Where? Please quote, directly?

There are many things Buddha did not explain but there are obviously unifying forces in the universe (albeit ultimately temporary), otherwise the universe would be just scattered pieces of matter (rather than conditioned phenomena formed from sub-particles of unified elements). For example, Buddha taught:


The four great elements and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.
Thus, some process or thing is unifying the four great elements to create the cohensive form we call the physical body.

However, Buddha was not concerned with how things unify but, instead, that they fall apart, because it is their falling apart which influences the arising of suffering.


Just the 12 links giving rise to our individual kamma that interlocks us all.
I struggle to comprehend the above.


To be free of our kamma is to be free of samsara, nibbanna.
Nibbana is to be free from craving; to be free from greed, hatred & delusion. To be free from kamma is the same, namely, to be free from 'self view' in relation to karma.


The mind likes unity, to bring all things down to a cohesive explanation.
Yes. The mind likes samadhi, which is a kind of unity. The mind also likes enlightenment, where all experience is cohesively understood & thus resolved/made peace with.


Bhikkhu Bodhi, wrote a beautiful essay on this regarding the differences between certain Theravada and Mahayana views.
Personally, I struggle to see how this is relevant to the topic.

As Bhikkhu Bodhi points out, often the Mahayana, Advaita Vedanta [and some Theravadins, such as Katukurunde Nanananda], hold 'things' are created or originate via 'mental concepts'. Whilst Buddha did not place any emphasis upon this, this matter of 'conceptual creation' is unrelated to the topic.


Like Jayantha pointed out, The Buddha left alone things that would probably make your head explode while the Mahayana seemed to embrace them.
Buddha taught that which was necessary. Buddha taught disenchantment, dispassion & Nibbana.

;D