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Element
13 Aug 12, 22:24
dear Pali students

i thought to possibly commence a discussion on the following suttas:


Cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ…pe… jivhā purāṇakammā abhisaṅkhatā abhisañcetayitā vedaniyā daṭṭhabbā…pe… mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.

Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. (Thanissaro)

What, monks, is old kamma? The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma.' (Walshe)

And what, bhhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. (Bodhi)

SN 35.146 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.wlsh.html)


nāyaṃ, bhikkhave, kāyo tumhākaṃ napi aññesaṃ. Purāṇamidaṃ , bhikkhave, kammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ’

Friends, this body is not yours nor does it belong to someone else. You ought to see this "old karma" (body) as something concocted by conditions (abhisaṅkhata), as conditioned by impulses (abhisañcetayita), and as capable of experiencing sense objects (vedanīya).

Friends, in the case of this body the noble disciple who has listened well reflects with systematic care concerning paṭiccasamuppāda that "Because this exists, this exists; through the arising of this, this arises; because this does not exist, this does not exist; through the quenching of this, this quenches;" in other words, "with ignorance as condition, there are concoctings; with concoctings as condition, there is consciousness; … and so on through … with birth as condition, there is aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in full. The entire mass of dukkha arises in just this way."

Through the fading away and remainderless quenching of ignorance, concoctings quenches; with the quenching of concoctings, consciousness quenches; with the quenching of consciousness,mind-body quenches; … and so on through … with the quenching of clinging, becoming quenches; with the quenching of becoming, birth quenches; with the quenching of birth, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair utterly quench. The entire mass of dukkha quenches in just this way."

Buddhadasa (http://liberationpark.org/study/pdf/Kamma.pdf)


this sutta may be helpful for analysis, as it contains the same Pali words:


Avijjāgato yaṃ, bhikkhave, purisapuggalo puññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, puññūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ. Apuññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, apuññūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ. Āneñjaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti āneñjūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance generates a meritious formation, consciousness fares on the meritorious; if he generates a demeritious formation, consciousness fares on the demeritorious; if he generates an imperturbable formation, consciousness fares on the imperturbable. (Bodhi)

SN 12.51
what do we think Buddha was explaining here about the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind being 'old kamma'?

:confused:

Element
13 Aug 12, 23:14
a commentary:


this...'dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling'...continues to function for the arahant, as do...hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, cognitions......the conditioning of old kamma still at play with arahants, which is most famously illustrated by what happened to Ven Angulimala after his awakening.

Keeping that in mind we have the Buddha stating:

"What, monks, is old kamma?

"The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma.' -- S iv 132

And obviously this "old kamma" is the basis for dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness...[&] contact.

:confused:

Element
14 Aug 12, 01:24
another sutta, which may help:


Kiñca , bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha? Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati. Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti. Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’.

And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications. (Thanissaro)

Bhikkhus, why do they speak of sankhara? Bhikkhus, this nature naturally concocts concocted things (abhisankharonti), for this reason it is called "sankhara." What does it concoct? It concocts rupa as something concocted with "formness," it concocts vedana as something concocted with "feelingness," it concocts sanya as something concocted with "recognition-ness," it concocts sankhara as something concocted with "concoctingness," it concocts vinyana as something concocted with "cognition-ness." Bhikkhus, this nature naturally concocts concocted things, for this reason it is called "sankhara." (Buddhadasa)

SN 22.79 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html)

Esho
14 Aug 12, 04:42
what do we think Buddha was explaining here about the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind being 'old kamma'?

Hi Element,

The first impression gotten by SN 35.146 & SN 12.51 is that 'old kamma' refers to a kind of very first kamma as a property of conditions that are put together -fabricated- so that those shape the latent tendency of eye, body, tongue, nose & mind. Maybe this latent tendencies are shaped in turn as volition; thus when action is taken, there is 'new kamma'.


"And what, monks, is new kamma?

"The action[4] one performs now by body, speech and mind. This monks, is called 'new kamma.'

"When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, speech and mind, one touches liberation,[5] this, monks, is called 'the ceasing of kamma.'

SN 35.146



Reflecting on this, comes to mind that latent tendencies or 'old kamma' can be quenched too, through understanding and practice of 'this is not mine', this is not my self, this I am not'.


"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

SN 22.79



Only a momentary hint,

:dontknow:

andyrobyn
14 Aug 12, 12:02
Yes, I can see the idea of the action being new kamma being distinct from what we "see" ( through hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and cognition ) happening now.

Element
14 Aug 12, 12:35
Yes, I can see the idea of the action being new kamma being distinct from what we "see" ( through hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and cognition ) happening now.
yes. i sense that also

i sense the teaching may be saying that when one is mindful & clearly comprehending at sense experience, 'old kamma' is finished; i.e., 'old kamma' merely comprises of sense experience and there is no need to venture further back in 'time' than that

and, because the sense organs can be conditioned (i.e., affected/stimulated) by conditions, such as ignorance, and can be servants of the will (volition), it is new kamma that one must be most heedful of

i sense this teaching is not really important. it is just one unique expression amongst thousands of suttas

but i do sense it was a revolution of the old, similar to when Jesus said: "You have heard it said [in the past], but I say [now & new]"

similarly, the Brahmins (Hindus) believed their lives were the product of old kamma. but Buddha offered a new teaching, advising when the mind is mindful in the present, there is no old kamma from the past; that 'old kamma' & 'new kamma' can only come into play when mindfulness & wisdom at sense experience are absent

regards

:peace:


And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

And what is the quenching of kamma? From the quenching of contact is the quenching of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the quenching (cessation) of kamma.

Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html)