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Element
25 Jun 12, 11:52
appeasement

1. pacification, compromise, accommodation, concession, conciliation, acceding, propitiation, mollification, placation

2. easing, relieving, satisfaction, softening, blunting, soothing, quieting, lessening, lulling, quelling, solace, quenching, mitigation, abatement, alleviation, assuagement, tranquillization the appeasement of terror

what do we think?

:confused:


Now from the remainderless fading and appeasement of that very ignorance comes the appeasement of fabrications.

From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness.
From the appeasement of consciousness comes the appeasement of mind-&-body.
From the appeasement of mind-&-bodycomes the appeasement of the six sense media.
From the appeasement of the six sense media comes the appeasement of contact.
From the appeasement of contact comes the appeasement of feeling.
From the appeasement of feeling comes the appeasement of craving.
From the appeasement of craving comes the appeasement of clinging.
From the appeasement of clinging comes the appeasement of becoming.
From the appeasement of becoming comes the appeasement of birth.
From the appeasement of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to appeasement.

Such is the appeasement of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

:peace:

daverupa
25 Jun 12, 12:00
Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

Goofaholix
25 Jun 12, 20:05
Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

I found this here, http://thewholeworks.blogspot.co.nz/2007/04/four-noble-truths.html I don't know how reliable it is


Nirodha-- ‘confine’; rodha means ‘earth bank’ or ‘enclosure’; ni means ‘down’;
(not nir-rodha meaning ‘out of prison’)

As for the OP I think the difference between cessation and appeasement is the former could be something that has just stopped (maybe spontainiously) whereas the latter suggests a process of actively making it stop, which is better would depend on the emphasis that is desired.

Element
25 Jun 12, 20:44
I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

Visuddhimagga (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf)

Nirodha (cessation): the word ni denotes absence, and the word rodha, a
prison. Now, the third truth is void of all destinies and so there is no
constraint (rodha) of suffering here reckoned as the prison of the round of rebirths;
or when that cessation has been arrived at, there is no more constraint of suffering
reckoned as the prison of the round of rebirths. And being the opposite of that
prison, it is called dukkha-nirodha (cessation of suffering). Or alternatively, it is
called “cessation of suffering” because it is a condition for the cessation of
suffering consisting in non-arising.


A problem with the word "nirodha"

The word nirodha has been translated as "cessation" for so long that it has become standard practice and any deviation from it leads to queries. Even in this book I have opted for this standard translation for sake of convenience and to avoid confusing it for other Pali terms (apart from lack of a better word). In fact, however, this rendering of the word "nirodha" as "ceased" can in many instances be a mis-rendering of the text.

Generally speaking, the word "cease" means to do away with something which has already arisen or the stopping of something which has already begun. However, nirodha in the teaching of Dependent Origination (as also in dukkhanirodha, the third of the Four Noble Truths) means the non-arising, or non-existence, of something because the cause of its arising is done away with. For example, the phrase "when avijja is nirodha, sankhara are also nirodha," which is usually taken to mean "with the cessation of ignorance, volitional impulses cease," in fact means "when there is no ignorance or no arising of ignorance, or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there are no volitional impulses, volitional impulses do not arise or there is no longer any problem with volitional impulses." It does not mean that ignorance already arisen must be done away with before the volitional impulses which have already arisen will also be done away with.

Where nirodha should be rendered as cessation is when it is used in reference to the natural way of things or the nature of compounded things. In this sense it is a synonym for the words bhanga, breaking up, anicca, transient, khaya, cessation or vaya, decay. For example, in the Pali it is given: imam kho bhikkhave tisso vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khayadhamma vayadhamma viragadhamma nirodhadhamma: "Monks, these three kinds of feeling are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading and cessation."[S.IV.214] (All of the factors occurring in the Dependent Origination cycle have the same nature.) In this instance, the meaning is "all conditioned things (sankhara), having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors." There is no need to try to stop them, they cease of themselves. Here the intention is to describe a natural condition which, in terms of practice, simply means "that which arises can be done away with."

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising" and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

Therefore, translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."

Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."

PA Payutto (http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarisea.htm#problem)

***

Element
25 Jun 12, 20:52
From the non-arising of fabrications comes the non-arising of consciousness.


"non-arising"
of what? in nirodha, does consciousness not arise? :confused:



If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html)


When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html)

daverupa
25 Jun 12, 22:09
I had a look at the pali text society dictionary and couldnt find anything that indicated the rodha part should actually be udaya.

Nah, that'll be an error on this side, whoops.

Element
25 Jun 12, 22:34
imso, it is essential dhamma theory correlates with the reality of dhamma (experience of truth)

at the links are the 2nd set of dhamma talks i heard in my life, the 1st set being heard one month earlier

i highly recommend them (rather than wasting time with the Hindu rebirthers obsessions with 'cessation')

Noble Truth of Dukkha's Quenching part 1 (http://www.liberationpark.org/audio/ntruths/8901-5a.mp3)

Noble Truth of Dukkha's Quenching part 2 (http://www.liberationpark.org/audiox/tanaj01.htm)

***

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 03:30
Nir + Udaya

"non-arising"

Can I know from where you got this translation please? Udaya in pali means arising indeed.

Element
26 Jun 12, 09:39
Can I know from where you got this translation please? Udaya in pali means arising indeed.
The translation appears to be mere theory (aka 'superstition'). In experience, when suffering ceases, the aggregates do not cease.

In respect to Paticcanirodha, the terms 'cessation' & 'non-arising' are not relevant.

Kind regards

;D

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 10:56
In respect to Paticcanirodha, the terms 'cessation' & 'non-arising' are not relevant.



I was not referring to Paticcanirodha. I was referring to nirodha as in sanna-vedayita-nirodha. What I want to know specifically is how Dave got the reference to this:
nirodha = Nir + Udaya

daverupa
26 Jun 12, 11:19
It comes from other discussions of this term, elsewhere.

Margaret Cone's dictionary offers


nirodha, 1. ceasing, cessation; the being no more; stopping, shutting of. ... 2. (for sannavedayitanirodha) the cessation of conception and feeling ...

nir + udaya simply seemed correct, given this common reading of the term, but see below.

I had understood vaya to mean 'cessation', as in the compound udaya-vaya-nupassana-nana - here, I understood udaya-vaya- 'arising-ceasing-', as opposed terms. This is why 'cessation' as a translation of nirodha feels inadequate to me, and I prefer the literalism of making sure a translation reflects the structure 'ni(r) + ...'. (As an aside, as I understood it, 'ni(r)' has provided the 'r', making 'rodha' unlikely.)

As to 'appeasement', the word for this in Pali, I had thought, was santhanaṃ.

Element
26 Jun 12, 11:30
i reckon it is best to forget the Pali words. often, we refer to them as though Rhys Davids, Horner, etc, are arahants

i thought 'appeasement' was a very good explanatory word, better than 'quenching' or 'extinguising'

naturally, we are open to more suggestions about the English word that best describes the experience of 'nirodha' in terms of Paticcanirodha

;D

daverupa
26 Jun 12, 11:47
i reckon...

i thought 'appeasement' was a very good explanatory word, better than 'quenching' or 'extinguising'

That's funny, because I also do not prefer 'quenching' or 'extinguishing', and had thought "non-arising" was a very good explanatory word as well... but apparently not. It


appears to be mere theory (aka 'superstition')

and yet you offer the same...

:zzz:

Element
26 Jun 12, 11:52
and yet you offer the same...
definitely not

Element offered this:


Now from the remainderless fading and appeasement of that very ignorance comes the appeasement of fabrications.

From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness.
From the appeasement of consciousness comes the appeasement of mind-&-body.
From the appeasement of mind-&-bodycomes the appeasement of the six sense media.
From the appeasement of the six sense media comes the appeasement of contact.
From the appeasement of contact comes the appeasement of feeling.
From the appeasement of feeling comes the appeasement of craving.
From the appeasement of craving comes the appeasement of clinging.
From the appeasement of clinging comes the appeasement of becoming.
From the appeasement of becoming comes the appeasement of birth.
From the appeasement of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to appeasement.

Such is the appeasement of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

Daverupa offered this:


Now from the remainderless fading and non-arising of that very ignorance comes the non-arising of fabrications.

From the non-arising of fabrications comes the non-arising of consciousness.
From the non-arising of consciousness comes the non-arising of mind-&-body.
From the non-arising of mind-&-bodycomes the non-arising of the six sense media.
From the non-arising of the six sense media comes the non-arising of contact.
From the non-arising of contact comes the non-arising of feeling.
From the non-arising of feeling comes the non-arising of craving.
From the non-arising of craving comes the non-arising of clinging.
From the non-arising of clinging comes the non-arising of becoming.
From the non-arising of becoming comes the non-arising of birth.
From the non-arising of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to non-arising .

Such is the non-arising of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

the later is superstition because such an experience cannot be experienced in the liberated mind

;D

daverupa
26 Jun 12, 11:56
such an experience cannot be experienced in the liberated mind

This is an assertion with no support, as yet. I'd be interested in your line of thinking here. ("remainderless fading and non-arising" seems perfectly adequate...)

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 11:56
nir + udaya simply seemed correct, given this common reading of the term, but see below.

I had understood vaya to mean 'cessation', as in the compound udaya-vaya-nupassana-nana - here, I understood udaya-vaya- 'arising-ceasing-', as opposed terms. This is why 'cessation' as a translation of nirodha feels inadequate to me, and I prefer the literalism of making sure a translation reflects the structure 'ni(r) + ...'. (As an aside, as I understood it, 'ni(r)' has provided the 'r', making 'rodha' unlikely.)

As to 'appeasement', the word for this in Pali, I had thought, was santhanaṃ.

Thanks Dave. When I first read Nir+Udaya I thought it was interesting because Nir has the meaning of none, nothing and udaya - arising. Whereas rodha in ni+rodha has the meaning of cyclic according to my understanding. So nir+udaya for nirodha is more possible and I have a feeling you could be right here : nir+udaya

As for 'appeasement', it is in fact a better translation than non-arising because according to the context where nirodha is used, it can mean both non-arising as well as relieve, pacification... 'appeasement' is flexible that way.

Element
26 Jun 12, 11:56
That's funny, because I also do not prefer 'quenching' or 'extinguishing', and had thought "non-arising" was a very good explanatory word as well... but apparently not.
the suttas have thoroughly dismissed "non-arising"

in the following quotes, do consciousness, the sense bases & sense contract "non-arise"?



If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta


When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya


On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

The Greater Craving-Destruction Discourse

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:02
This is an assertion with no support, as yet. I'd be interested in your line of thinking here. ("remainderless fading and non-arising" seems perfectly adequate...)
i am not actually interested in having a DW style papanca discussion with you. my thinking has already been posted.

as for Daverupa, Buddha said:


There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Daverupa, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.

:meditate: :love:


What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, Daverupa.

daverupa
26 Jun 12, 12:05
nirodha-samāpatti | non-arising attainment / appeasement attainment

saññā-vedayita-nirodha | perception-feeling non-arising / perception-feeling appeasement

These two terms are equated, and follow the last formless attainment in the Suttas. This is why non-arising feels like a good fit to me, since it has wide application in the Pali compounds where it is found. 'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts.

It's definitely a subtle matter; I suggest we try to leave the word untranslated wherever we find it, which may support discussion, unlike some of Element's antics.

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:08
As for 'appeasement', it is in fact a better translation than non-arising because according to the context where nirodha is used, it can mean both non-arising as well as relieve, pacification... 'appeasement' is flexible that way.
the essence of nirodha is liberation


Now from the remainderless fading and liberation from that very ignorance comes the liberation from fabrications.

From the liberation from fabrications comes the liberation of consciousness.
From the liberation of consciousness comes theliberation of mind-&-body.
From the liberation of mind-&-bodycomes the liberation of the six sense media.
From the liberation of the six sense media comes the liberation of contact.
From the liberation of contact comes the liberation of feeling.
From the liberation of feeling comes the liberation from craving.
From the liberation from craving comes the liberation from clinging.
From the liberation from clinging comes the liberation from becoming.
From the liberation from becoming comes the liberation from birth.
From the liberation from birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair all are subject to liberation.

Such is the liberation from this entire mass of stress & suffering.

;D

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:28
nirodha-samāpatti | non-arising attainment / appeasement attainment

saññā-vedayita-nirodha | perception-feeling non-arising / perception-feeling appeasement
although a liberated (buddha) mind can enter into this state, this is a samadhi state & not intrinsically a state of liberation. it is a conditioned/fabricated state, as follows:


One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140

as was correctly pointed out, without any need of support , the experience of 'non-arising' of consciousness, etc, cannot be experienced in the liberated mind, i.e., always


"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment (wisdom), friend Susima."

Susima Sutta

;D

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:31
I suggest we try to leave the word untranslated wherever we find it, which may support discussion, unlike some of Element's antics.
how many times do these suttas have to be posted for one in denial of the Teacher's message?

the state of liberation is not related to the "non-arising" of sense consciousness


If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta


When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya


On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

The Greater Craving-Destruction Discourse

:buddha:

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:34
Therefore, Ananda, engage with me in friendliness, and not in opposition. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness.

"And how do students engage with the teacher in opposition and not in friendliness? There is the case where a teacher teaches the Dhamma to his students sympathetically, seeking their well-being, out of sympathy: 'This is for your well-being; this is for your happiness.' His disciples do not listen or lend ear or apply their minds to gnosis. Turning aside, they stray from the Teacher's message. This is how students engage with the teacher as opponents and not as friends.

"And how do students engage with the teacher in friendliness and not in opposition? There is the case where a teacher teaches the Dhamma to his students sympathetically, seeking their well-being, out of sympathy: 'This is for your well-being; this is for your happiness.' His disciples listen, lend ear, & apply their minds to gnosis. Not turning aside, they don't stray from the Teacher's message. This is how students engage with the teacher as friends and not as opponents.

"Therefore, Ananda, engage with me in friendliness, and not in opposition. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness.

"I won't hover over you like a potter over damp, unbaked clay goods. Scolding again & again, I will speak. Urging you on again & again, I will speak. Whatever is of essential worth will remain."

:hands:

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 12:34
'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts.



That is a very good point too. Wherever nirodha is used to mean "an utter lack of" the word appeasement can get misunderstood.

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:38
That is a very good point too. Wherever nirodha is used to mean "an utter lack of" the word appeasement can get misunderstood.

Originally Posted by daverupa

'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts.
what do "formless contexts" have do do with liberation & nirodha?

the suttas have explained the formless contexts are not states of liberation; instead, they are conditioned states


One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 12:44
the essence of nirodha is liberation



You asked about our thoughts on the translation "appeasement". Appeasement is a good translation in some contexts but as Dave said, sometimes the word nirodha is best translated as non-arising. It did not occur to me before but wherever a complete lack of something is meant by nirodha, the word appeasement can get misunderstood. The best translation depends on the context imo.

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 12:46
what do "formless contexts" have do do with liberation & nirodha?

the suttas have explained the formless contexts are not states of liberation; instead, they are conditioned states

That is not the point here. We are not discussing whether or not nirodha samapatti is liberation. We are discussing when nirodha is used in some contexts like "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", if appeasement is the best translation. Imo, non-arising is the best in that context.

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:50
That is not the point here. We are not discussing whether or not nirodha samapatti is liberation. We are discussing when nirodha is used in some contexts like "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", if appeasement is the best translation. Imo, non-arising is the best in that context.


You asked about our thoughts on the translation "appeasement". but as Dave said, sometimes the word nirodha is best translated as non-arising
yes, but i asked in the context of Paticcanirodha.

the excerpt by PA Payutto has pointed out the contexts for non-arising

but, the thread was started as a meditation, rather than as a papanca exercise

meditate upon it, rather than papanca about it

kind regards ;D

Element
26 Jun 12, 12:56
the original idea came from here, in respect to kamma & contact. i felt the term 'cessation' did not really fit the context:


And what is the appeasement [cessation] of kamma? From the appeasment of contact is the appeasement of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the appeasement of kamma.

AN 6.63

Deshy
26 Jun 12, 13:08
yes, but i asked in the context of Paticcanirodha.

Yes, in the context of dependent cessation, appeasement seems to work better especially in places like this:


From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness.

But the word nirodha is not always best translated as appeasement.

From where did you fish out this word btw?

Element
26 Jun 12, 20:15
From where did you fish out this word btw?
it just popped into my head when i posted this, to explain ending the results of kamma:


And what is the appeasement [cessation] of kamma? From the appeasment of contact is the appeasement of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the appeasement of kamma.

AN 6.63
'cessation' did not fit, such as in: "From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma". this would confuse a newbie, who may infer for karma to end, the mind must be unconscious

then the words 'quenching', 'extinquishing', etc sound a bit strange. of course, 'non-arising' is the same as 'cessation', namely, non-sequitur

so the word 'appeasement' just popped up, which has the flavour of cool, collected & wise sense experience

it was just an idea, that is all. i am not asserting it is perfect

but 'non-arising', definitely not what i was looking for

the word 'cessation' is the most serious error of translation in Buddhism. it is the sphere of Hindu rebirth ideas

kind regards

;D

Deshy
27 Jun 12, 16:54
the word 'cessation' is the most serious error of translation in Buddhism.



Well, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering sounds fine to me. It is best to give the idea of 'a ceasing' or 'an end' there. :dontknow:

Element
27 Jun 12, 20:33
Well, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering sounds fine to me. It is best to give the idea of 'a ceasing' or 'an end' there. :dontknow:
sure, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering is fine. this is why translations of the 3rd noble truth always make perfect sense

but the problem arises with Dependent Origination, where the word 'cessation' implies when ignorance ceases, the five aggregates, i.e., life, ceases

this is not a trivial matter. the history of buddhism is dominated by such materialistic intepretations. the literal rebirthers believe with the cessation of ignorance, there is the literal cessation of consciousness, mind & body, etc

then there are the neo-advaitists, such as Katukurunde Nanananda, that seem to hold with the cessation of ignorance, there occurs the cessation of the perception of consciousness, mind & body, etc, i.e., the cessation of 'naming' 'forms'.

***

it is essential to always use the 4NTs as the reference point, where the cessation of craving is explained as the cessation of suffering

:peace:

Deshy
28 Jun 12, 11:07
sure, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering is fine. this is why translations of the 3rd noble truth always make perfect sense

but the problem arises with Dependent Origination, where the word 'cessation' implies when ignorance ceases, the five aggregates, i.e., life, ceases

this is not a trivial matter. the history of buddhism is dominated by such materialistic intepretations. the literal rebirthers believe with the cessation of ignorance, there is the literal cessation of consciousness, mind & body, etc

then there are the neo-advaitists, such as Katukurunde Nanananda, that seem to hold with the cessation of ignorance, there occurs the cessation of the perception of consciousness, mind & body, etc, i.e., the cessation of 'naming' 'forms'.

***

it is essential to always use the 4NTs as the reference point, where the cessation of craving is explained as the cessation of suffering

:peace:

Yes, I agree

viniketa
28 Jun 12, 16:20
As in yoga, nirodha can also be translated as "containment" or "confinement" in the context of the 4NT.

See:

http://www.yogastudies.org/yoga-sutra-freenotes/romanised-sanskrit-glossary/

http://www.dharmasanctuary.org/2011/07/26/the-four-noble-truths-new-insights/

Namaste