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clw_uk
25 Jun 10, 15:30
As a gay man I am often greeted with hateful speech directed at me through the media or in face to face situations with followers of certain religions


When i am met with this I feel a sense of anger and sadness because of the views expressed. For instance I recently read a muslim who said that homosexuals arent really human. This lead me to great anger.



Any advice on how to deal with such events more skilfully in the future?

srivijaya
25 Jun 10, 15:34
It's difficult to quite know how to react to such bigotry. If we look at it from a mind-training POV then we stay silent and learn about our own reaction. On the other hand, such views are patently incorrect, so by remaining silent are we also party to the perpetuation of these lies?

Tough one.

Esho
25 Jun 10, 15:41
POV

Dear Sriv, what is POV?

clw_uk
25 Jun 10, 15:45
It's difficult to quite know how to react to such bigotry. If we look at it from a mind-training POV then we stay silent and learn about our own reaction. On the other hand, such views are patently incorrect, so by remaining silent are we also party to the perpetuation of these lies?

Tough one.



This is really the dilemma I feel. From Dhamma point of view I know what to do, mindfulness and loving-kindness etc


However from a worldly point of view if these views aren't opposed they can spread and cause widespread misery for millions

Esho
25 Jun 10, 15:50
so by remaining silent are we also party to the perpetuation of these lies?

Just my two cents...

No, I think not. But what is to remain in silence? If silence is to suppress our anger is not correct but if silence comes from a pacefull mind I think to remain in silence is correct. To act against this kind of bigotry just increases it. Judeo/Christian Religions are against gay lifestyle and there is no much to do with that. Live pacefully within our lifestyle and let things in its impermanent nature. Do not get entagled at them.

:hands:

Esho
25 Jun 10, 15:52
For instance I recently read a muslim who said that homosexuals arent really human. This lead me to great anger.

I can understand dear clw_uk,


:hug:

Cobalt
25 Jun 10, 15:58
I was reading the Bodhicharyavatara these last few days, and one thing that gets mentioned is that there is a difference between anger for anger's sake, and anger that is rooted in compassion (which gets treated as less-real anger, a superficial and educational way of turning compassion into action). It's important to let neither type of anger totally rule you, but if you are watching yourself and people you love be treated poorly because of something stupid like religious bigotry, it is compassion that leads you to be bothered.

This is something I struggle with as well. Marginalized people frequently need to own their anger, particularly when the alternative is the acceptance of danger and hate directed at people who don't deserve it. However, I think Shantideva would say to direct it where it belongs. If someone is beating him with a stick, he suggests that it is silly to hate the stick because it is being controlled by other factors. Similarly, the person wielding the stick is being controlled by mental defilements as well, so the real object of resentment here should not be the stick or the person, but rather the root cause: ignorance and bigotry.

So I would say personally that if anger is the natural outgrowth of compassion, it can be better than the alternative (which may be self-hate). But don't let it make you someone you wouldn't want to be. That won't make your emotional state just as bad as that of religious bigots, but it will reduce your control over your own actions and conscience, which may make you a less effective agent of change.

In this I am going to respectfully disagree with Kaarine Alejandra. It is not compassionate to watch others suffer and sit and stare at our navels while people we could help are experiencing injustice and pain that we could have done something about. In my opinion, if we are too busy with the dharma to act on compassion, then we are too busy with the words of the dharma and we are missing the point.

Esho
25 Jun 10, 16:08
In this I am going to respectfully disagree with Kaarine Alejandra. It is not compassionate to watch others suffer and sit and stare at our navels while people we could help are experiencing injustice and pain that we could have done something about. In my opinion, if we are too busy with the dharma to act on compassion, then we are too busy with the words of the dharma and we are missing the point.

Sorry Cobalt if you misunderstood what I posted. I have hard time with english making clear my ideas. I never tell about Sittin and stare at our navels while people is experiencing injustice. I work hard every day in a prison with female inmates so to avoid injustice in a very tough environment. So I am not the kind of person that, as you pointed, sit and stare at our navels... I was trying to tell that to respond with an angry mind is not wise. Silence is not about inaction. Silence is about deep understanding of a situation... once we have had that understanding we can act accordingly.

Sorry If I was not clear...

:hands:

Cobalt
25 Jun 10, 16:14
Ah. Yeah, that is a difference. Thanks for the clarification.

Esho
25 Jun 10, 16:20
Ah. Yeah, that is a difference. Thanks for the clarification.

Your wellcome dear Cobalt,


;)

srivijaya
25 Jun 10, 17:30
Hi Kaarine,
POV = Point Of View
namaste

Esho
25 Jun 10, 17:38
Thanks Sriv,

:)

Aloka
25 Jun 10, 18:29
Any advice on how to deal with such events more skilfully in the future?


Just because somebody speaks from ignorance and bigotry doesn't make what they say true, or even worth taking seriously.

Our sexual orientation is of no importance on a spiritual level...or indeed on any level at all.

:hug:

clw_uk
25 Jun 10, 18:34
Any advice on how to deal with such events more skilfully in the future?


Just because somebody speaks from ignorance and bigotry doesn't make what they say true, or even worth taking seriously.

Our sexual orientation is of no importance on a spiritual level...or indeed on any level at all.

:hug:



Dazzle I am in debt. Your post made me see the way


When they criticize homosexuality, to get offended is ignorance since body, sexuality etc are anicca, dukkha and anatta


That being so one should arouse compassion and loving-kindness and "oppose" such views since they are ignorant and subject those who say them, along with those who dont know Dhamma, to dukkha


Anger is not applicable. Dhamma and loving-kindness is


thank you friend

Aloka
25 Jun 10, 18:54
Anger is not applicable. Dhamma and loving-kindness is

Well said dear friend.

Esho
25 Jun 10, 19:03
Just because somebody speaks from ignorance and bigotry doesn't make what they say true, or even worth taking seriously.

That it Dazz...

:hands:

Cobalt
26 Jun 10, 03:45
Sadly in my country they still vote....

fivebells
26 Jun 10, 20:32
Any advice on how to deal with such events more skilfully in the future? From your subsequent remarks, it sounds as though your central interest in these interactions is to dispel the misconception. If that's the case, calmly explore the basis of their belief with them.

clw_uk
26 Jun 10, 21:38
From your subsequent remarks, it sounds as though your central interest in these interactions is to dispel the misconception. If that's the case, calmly explore the basis of their belief with them.


Mostly its because "the .. said so" and because "homosexuals cant reproduce" etc

fivebells
26 Jun 10, 21:43
Mostly its because "the .. said so..." "So the teachings of the ... are very important to you? Many of its teachings are difficult to apply to modern life, and the proscriptions against homosexuality are quite obscure. How have you determined that this proscription is more important than proscription X, for instance?"
...and because "homosexuals cant reproduce" etc
"So the possibility of reproduction is a core value for you in evaluating sexual activity? Why is that?"

clw_uk
26 Jun 10, 21:44
Mostly its because "the .. said so..."
"So the teachings of the ... are very important to you? Many of its teachings are difficult to apply to modern life, and the proscriptions against homosexuality are quite obscure. How have you determined that this proscription is more important than proscription X, for instance?
Quote from: clw_uk on Today at 10:38:16 PM
...and because "homosexuals cant reproduce" etc
"So the possibility of reproduction is a core value for you in evaluating sexual activity? Why is that?"
Report to moderator Logged


Well no I was just stating what their reasons usually are

fivebells
26 Jun 10, 22:27
I understood that, I was suggesting possible responses to those reasons.

clw_uk
26 Jun 10, 23:41
I understood that, I was suggesting possible responses to those reasons.



Oh sorry misread you

Dennis60
28 Jun 10, 22:10
Well, i am on a global news forum, and it has a lot of fundamentalists of all shapes and colors. They are prejudiced and pretty narrow minded about many goings on in the world. I do not get angry at them, but i do respond to them. Something like, "there ARE different views on this you know." "What if your son or daughter were "X", then how would you feel." "The world is becoming less prejudice all the time, you might consider that.".... etc.... I find it really hard to sit quietly while other people are denigrated in any way. It might not be the best approach, but standing by, and saying nothing is almost to hard for me....

frank
25 Jul 10, 14:30
I live in a Muslim country the education system is base on the Koran. It must be nearly impossible for a normal person to be able to 'get ahead' of their training and bigotry,and see a way that doesn't involve killing those who don't share ones own narrow view of the world.
Sometimes l feel sorry for these bigots...sometimes.

jan
14 Aug 10, 08:46
Hi clw_uk, any condemnation id born out of fear, ultimately for things in one's being that one cannot except. I find it most helpful to try to seer that. It is not indiscriminate/dogmatic loving kindness, but it includes the understanding of the predicament of the other (which I think it should). You can see pain, insecurity, unacceptance, often trauma. It doesn't justify the condemnation but it becomes easier to see them as alienated rather than feeling alienated yourself. Good post, thanks.