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Bothi
08 Feb 12, 17:49
Howdy,

What is the importance of emptiness in Buddhism?

Thanking you in advance,

Element
08 Feb 12, 19:08
What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering.

MN 22 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.nypo.html)


So then, bhikkhus, the holy life is led not for, gain, honour and fame, not for the endowment of virtues, not for the endowment of concentration, not for the endowment of knowledges and vision. Bhikkhus, it is for the unshakeable release of mind that is the essence and end (fulfilment) of the holy life.

MN 29 (http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/029-mahasaropama-sutta-e1.html)


Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self, thus it is said, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. The ear is empty...The nose is empty...The tongue is empty...The body is empty...The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty.

MN 35.85 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html)

In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

SN 35.101 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html)
:peace:

Madina-Spike
08 Feb 12, 19:15
I could be wrong here, but I think it's importance lies in developing non-attachment. I imagine the two go hand in hand.

Chai yen :hands:

upekka
08 Feb 12, 20:00
you are an invaluable asset, Element

thank you for posting the following:


:peace:
In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

SN 35.101




Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact,
(known through the six sense bases)

experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain,
(suffering)

that too is not yours: let go of it.

(be mindful not to cling to it with knowing that is not yours, otherwise it will be the cause for future suffering)

Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.



Thanks again, element, you provide the exact sutta that 'i have been looking for'

Thanks Again, Element

Bothi
08 Feb 12, 22:58
This statement
Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact,
(known through the six sense bases)

experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain,
(suffering)

that too is not yours: let go of it. is such a nonsense that any body knows very well that, a kidney pain belongs to the one whoever feels it. And this pain, no matter what you do, can not be let go. Because it will not go, so owner of the pain shall suffer. Here please show me how this pain will be gone...No matter what you do pain stays as long as kidney stone moves...

I see that here some statements are just nonsense. And we are listening these nonsense statements... This is suffering too.

Some body recently said that ''bodhisattvas do not suffer'' this is also a nonse because every human suffers either Buddha or any other being can not stop it...Physical suffering say a kidney pain is a reality. Bodhisattvas certainly suffer if others have suffering...

Lets all be mindfull,

andyrobyn
08 Feb 12, 23:44
The experience of the pain of the kidney stone, which has been likened to the pains of labour in childbirth, is real - the pain will go when the stone is removed from the ureter just as the pains of labour will end when the baby is born.
The suffering is our response and attitude to the pain experience.

The intention of the Bodhisattva vow is that seeing someone in pain, as well as seeing someone suffer, we will do what we can to help ( and for no moment here am I suggesting that only someone who has taken this vow would do that, or will do it better than someone who has not !!! ).

Often our ability to help is limited and may not be wanted - unless you are a surgeon there is not much that you can do to help remove the stone, for example.

Telling someone in pain with a kidney stone that suffering is optional is not going to help in an acute situation.

Also, using your example, if you are easily distressed yourself by seeing others in pain and the person asks you to stay the best thing you could do is find an alternate support person for them.

It is all about our own actions and intentions.

Esho
08 Feb 12, 23:51
This statement is such a nonsense that any body knows very well that, a kidney pain belongs to the one whoever feels it. And this pain, no matter what you do, can not be let go. Because it will not go, so owner of the pain shall suffer. Here please show me how this pain will be gone...No matter what you do pain stays as long as kidney stone moves...

Bothi, pain is not the same as mental suffering. You can not get ride of pain but being into pain you can not have mental suffering because of it.

It is taught in the teachings of Buddha.


I see that here some statements are just nonsense. And we are listening these nonsense statements...

When things are seen without wisdom it seem nonsense. It is nonsense when Dhamma is not known.


This is suffering too.

Yes, because Dhamma is not correctly seen.


Some body recently said that ''bodhisattvas do not suffer''

... and I agree with what has recently said by "somebody".

A true Bodhisattva should not suffer. There is no reason for that. His/her mind is in the way of selflessness. An average human being who wish to help others, certainly, will suffer despite his or her good will.

He or she craves and clings to a self or a doer; imposes to others his/her personal view about "being helped" and everybody suffers.

The example of Mother Theresa given here and the quotes of her thoughts are a good example of what is not a Boddhisatva.

Nobody can be truly happy receiving help from other that suffers too. From other that do not know true and everlasting happiness.

True help come form those who abide in the four Brahma Viharas. Those that share true enduring happiness.

;D

Element
09 Feb 12, 00:37
...a kidney pain belongs to the one whoever feels it. And this pain, no matter what you do, can not be let go. Because it will not go, so owner of the pain shall suffer. Here please show me how this pain will be gone...No matter what you do pain stays as long as kidney stone moves...

I see that here some statements are just nonsense. And we are listening these nonsense statements... This is suffering too.

Some body recently said that ''bodhisattvas do not suffer'' this is also a nonse because every human suffers either Buddha or any other being can not stop it...Physical suffering say a kidney pain is a reality. Bodhisattvas certainly suffer if others have suffering...
hello Bothi

buddhism points out our suffering is contained in certain modes of thinking (rather than in painful feeling)

with metta

Element :hands:



The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it and detaching oneself from it.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth

****


"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana element with residue left.


***

Here, ruler of the gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation [of suffering], contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'What had to be done has been done'. Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of the gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end.

Culatanhasankhaya Sutta

***

"On seeing a form with the eye, he is not passionate for it if it is pleasing; he is not angry at it if it is displeasing. He lives with attention to body established, with an immeasurable mind and he understands realistically the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels - whether pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful - he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, [resist it] or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. From the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; from the cessation of clinging, the cessation of becoming; from the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth; from the cessation of birth, ageing-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering.

MahĂ tanhĂ sankhaya Sutta

***


But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

Mahaparinibbana Sutta

desert_don
09 Feb 12, 01:30
I could be wrong here, but I think it's importance lies in developing non-attachment. I imagine the two go hand in hand.

Chai yen :hands:

I am certain yuou are right. It's an emptying out of defilements that result from both cravings and attachments.

There is a writing on this theme by a monk in Thailand, originally in Thai, but with the Englsih title "Cleansing the Human Mind: A Purification of the Thought Processes." It identifies a number of negative thought patterns we inadvertently invite upon ourselves and the futility of dwelling in them.

upekka
09 Feb 12, 02:07
a kidney pain belongs to the one whoever feels it. And this pain, no matter what you do, can not be let go. Because it will not go, so owner of the pain shall suffer. Here please show me how this pain will be gone...No matter what you do pain stays as long as kidney stone moves...



good point to ponder

take 'the pain you have' (kidney pain or any other pain that you have) now

mindfully see what happens to it

does 'the pain' stay same, or does 'it' increase or does 'it' decrease?

mindfully see 'do you think (attached to) your 'earlier pain' or the 'pain now' or the 'pain which will come next moment/future'

do you know that by doing the above 'you are doing insight meditation'?

whatever you understand/experience by doing so would be your own insight not something you have read or listened


i hope Element would not think of banning members if possible
we all have fault and do wrong things because still we all are deluded

Element
09 Feb 12, 05:05
i hope Element would not think of banning members if possible
we all have fault and do wrong things because still we all are deluded
Upekka, as you request :hands:

Aloka
09 Feb 12, 08:40
i hope Element would not think of banning members if possible
we all have fault and do wrong things because still we all are deluded

Hi upekka,

I do understand your concerns. However all the circumstances surrounding a suspension, if one should occur at this website at any time, are not always seen or fully understood by visitors to the site.

Additionally, sometimes the administrators may also intervene and suspend members for varying periods of time, or permanently.

Thank you for posting in the discussions at BWB, Upekka, I always enjoy reading your posts.

with metta,

Aloka :hands:


General note for everyone

Any further queries about specific matters of this nature should be conducted with me privately by e-mail or PM rather than in topics on the forums. (see Code of Conduct for the website)

Many thanks

Bundokji
09 Feb 12, 09:34
Hello Bothi,

It has been said that "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional"

Understanding the difference between pain and suffering is essential for understanding the Buddha's teaching in my opinion.

Regards,
Bundokji :hands:

Madina-Spike
09 Feb 12, 09:41
I am certain yuou are right. It's an emptying out of defilements that result from both cravings and attachments.

There is a writing on this theme by a monk in Thailand, originally in Thai, but with the Englsih title "Cleansing the Human Mind: A Purification of the Thought Processes." It identifies a number of negative thought patterns we inadvertently invite upon ourselves and the futility of dwelling in them.

Thankyou Desert Don. Plus the Thai writing you mention definitely needs checking out I think! Thanks!

Chai yen :hands:

Bundokji
09 Feb 12, 10:15
But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

Mahaparinibbana Sutta

:hands::hands::hands:

McKmike
09 Feb 12, 10:24
Hi Bothi

One important aspect of emptiness in Buddhism is that from emptiness comes change, if everything was not essentially empty of solid identity it would not be able to change, so the truth of emptiness as the Buddha points to it, is in the ever changing reality around you

Deshy
09 Feb 12, 10:40
Some body recently said that ''bodhisattvas do not suffer'' this is also a nonse because every human suffers either Buddha or any other being can not stop it...Physical suffering say a kidney pain is a reality. Bodhisattvas certainly suffer if others have suffering...



That's right. All human beings suffer physical pain. Buddhism cannot cure physical pain. However, it is worthwhile mentioning that it is commonly accepted that parinibbana is the end of all suffering (physical and psychological). What is directly verifiable is that the Buddha taught a path to end mental suffering which arises due to greed, hatred and delusion. This is a verifiable fact. For physical pain it is best to see a doctor.

Bothi
09 Feb 12, 13:55
Dear Element,

Please kindly read the following;
Originally Posted by Element

In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

SN 35.101

The pain, say a kidney pain, or a cancer patient's pain, or any other physical pain, lets assume that is not mine, how one will let it go?

When you defend your faith, it should be logical...

Dear Element is now trying to cover the truth by stating following;

buddhism points out our suffering is contained in certain modes of thinking (rather than in painful feeling)
Above both statements belong to the same person. But each is contardictory to the other!

Dear Element, suffering is suffering. This includes all the sufferings. Then Buddha was not right. If Buddha has had distinquished this suffering deviding into two groups, thenn I would buy it...

With metta,

Bothi
09 Feb 12, 14:11
I could be wrong here, but I think it's importance lies in developing non-attachment. I imagine the two go hand in hand.

Chai yen :hands:

Dear Madina-Spike,

Attachment in many instances helps people go further. If Edison did not attach himself to the lighting bulp, we were all be at the darknes at nights... So whatever Buddha has said sometimes may not be correct...

With metta,

srivijaya
09 Feb 12, 16:39
If Edison did not attach himself to the lighting bulp, we were all be at the darknes at nights...
He did good work, as many do and are rightly praised for it. He didn't attain liberation though. So if you are pleased with your light-bulb thank Edison. If you want liberation, look into Buddhadharma.


So whatever Buddha has said sometimes may not be correct...
Looks like you have created an external Buddha of straw, that you can set alight to - not nearly as useful as a light-bulb though.
:hands:

Madina-Spike
09 Feb 12, 16:54
Dear Madina-Spike,

Attachment in many instances helps people go further. If Edison did not attach himself to the lighting bulp, we were all be at the darknes at nights... So whatever Buddha has said sometimes may not be correct...

With metta,

Light bulbs, despite how dependent people are on them, causes attachments. As can be said of all modern inventions. They're not necessary. People got on fine before they were invented.

Chai yen :hands:

Bothi
09 Feb 12, 17:07
Light bulbs, despite how dependent people are on them, causes attachments. As can be said of all modern inventions. They're not necessary. People got on fine before they were invented.

Chai yen :hands:

My dear,

If above is in the mind, then this mind should not have a right to use computers...

All one needs to have valuable attachments in order to go further in every way...

Element
09 Feb 12, 19:17
The pain, say a kidney pain, or a cancer patient's pain, or any other physical pain, lets assume that is not mine, how one will let it go?...
Bothi

in cases of terminal pain, the mind "lets it go" by accepting it, by not resisting it, by letting go of the craving for the pain to be otherwise, by reflecting upon it with wisdom that sickness & death are inevitable, by understanding physical pain is of the body & of the nervous system and not "mine".


Buddha said:

Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.

For an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, he welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

Lokavipatti Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.006.than.html)

practitioners that have practicesd emptiness sufficiently, have minds free from "selfing". there is just physical pain rather than "my pain". when pain is viewed as pain, rather than "my pain", this is realising emptiness


Buddha said:

So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself

And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind? There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not assume feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am feeling' or 'feeling is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his feeling changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress or despair over its change & alteration.

;D


suffering is suffering. If Buddha has had distinquished this suffering dividing into two groups, thenn I would buy it...
Buddha did distinguish suffering into two groups. but buying it will not help. one must practise to learn how to let go of physical pain

kind regards ;D


Buddha said:

When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.

But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html)

Element
09 Feb 12, 19:34
It has been said that "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional"

Understanding the difference between pain and suffering is essential for understanding the Buddha's teaching in my opinion.
Well spoken, well explained. :hands:

Bothi
09 Feb 12, 20:12
Dear Element,

Sorrow, suffering, pain are not different. Suffering includes physical and mental pains too. No matter what you do, whether accept it or not, even if, say it is just a pain, without stating ''my pain'' pain never goes away...Pain is always there as long as the main cause of the pain stays there. So every pain has nothing to do with any attachment as stated by Buddha..For instance kidney stone is the cause of kidney pain which has no relation with attachement at all...

Actually one way dealing with a physical pain is to get into it...But kidney pains has fluctutions in its intensities very often, so no matter what you do, you will not get rid of it untill it stops itself...

Another thing related to attachment issue, some attachments are a sort of requrement, if we want to advance our lives. All the famous inventions are the result of strong attachments. So we can conclude that attachments, if are in good will, then we can harvest good result at the end of these attachments.

With metta

upekka
09 Feb 12, 20:53
The pain, say a kidney pain, or a cancer patient's pain, or any other physical pain, lets assume that is not mine, how one will let it go?



you hit the nail

just the assumption 'that pain is not mine' is not enough to let 'it' go

you have to 'see' with wisdom 'that is not mine' then 'it' itself go or 'you let go of the pain'

to understand the difference between the 'assuming' and 'seeing' the pain, you have to meditate

meditate does not mean the concentration on breath or another object, but concentrate on 'your pain' and see what happen to it

in another post you said 'the pain is changing'

if the pain is yours, ask it to 'go away'

if it is yours, it should be listened to your orders

Element
09 Feb 12, 21:00
Sorrow, suffering, pain are not different.

pain never goes away...
yes, there are circumstances where pain never goes away

but sorrow & suffering can go away

this is buddha's teaching

regards ;D

desert_don
09 Feb 12, 22:29
Attachment in many instances helps people go further. If Edison did not attach himself to the lighting bulp, we were all be at the darknes at nights... So whatever Buddha has said sometimes may not be correct...

The attachments indicted by the Buddha were much more of a personal nature, as he warned that person-to-person bonds can lead to dilluisonment -- since people are, at best, only human -- and, with that, the pain and sorow of human existence. He later attenuated his disdain for personal relationships, suggesting his "middle way," meaning, just don't overdo it.

He very likely did not intend to decry one's devotion to a project for the improvement of quality of life. Monks in Thailand, I know, avail themselves of state-of-the-art audio-visual aids in their Dharma sermonizing.

Overall, the Buddha seems to have been a pretty good observer of human nature.

Aloka
09 Feb 12, 23:42
Sorrow, suffering, pain are not different. Suffering includes physical and mental pains too


Hi Bothi,

You might find this short article by Bhikkhu Bodhi helpful:

Living with pain, not with suffering

"As long as we have bodies, we will have physical pain. Buddhism promises no escape from that. What we can change is how we experience pain.

Bhikkhu Bodhi offers a technique to lessen mental suffering of pain, look at its true nature and learn its valuable lessons"

Continued at link :

http://www.dhammaweb.net/dhamma_news/view.php?id=304

with kind regards,

Aloka

spiritpatriot
26 Feb 12, 20:33
Emptiness is so important because it is the nature of all things. Just as a reflection in a drop of water is empty of actual existence being just a reflection, so the entire ego is also empty of substantiality.

The issue of physical pain is only ended with the death of the body and preventing a rebirth. The Buddha did experience physical pain, but he endured the pain with equinimity of mind. The Buddha also lived for 80 years, an impressive feat 1000 years ago let alone 2500 years ago. So although the Dhamma includes a psychological freedom from suffering, the Dhamma also contains physical advice such as living without attachment to possessions to avoid the stress those possessions cause to our bodies. Difficult, but not impossible.