Question on Shin Buddhism

[rlp7786]

Based on my (limited thus-far) studies on Pure land Buddhism I have a concern Id like some answer to. Do they emphasize as a part of their teaching the 4 Noble truth's and the 8 Fold path at all? Iv'e not been able to get through their entire scriptures yet and I understand Shinrans interpretation of pure land and Amitabha as Buddha nature and the self power as well as the other power, I even understand and love the chanting practice and plan to implement it as a stabilization mantra in my own meditations, but...as someone who believes the foundation of buddhism should lie in its oldest and universal teachings that exist in all sects...Im just curious as to what emphisis is put on the good old 4 and 8 in this sect?

[Lazy Eye]

rlp7786,

Hi and welcome to BWB! I hope someone here who is a Pure Land practitioner will answer your question in detail; for now, one thing I wanted to mention is that "Pure Land" is a broad term covering more than one school. The answers to your questions will differ depending on whether we look at Chinese Pure Land, for instance, or at the later developments in Japan.

Shinran was pretty radical. Meditation is not emphasized in the school which he founded, and the Buddhist precepts are regarded simply as guidelines. Developing shinjin (deep trust) in Amida Buddha is the one thing that really matters. The Jodo Shinshu teachers who I have encountered do present the Four Noble Truths, but their relationship to these teachings is obviously quite different from that of a Theravada Buddhist, for instance. They tend to see the Four Noble Truths as a foundation for all that came later, but what they are actually following is the part that came later.

Chinese Pure Land is more orthodox, that is, more closely connected with the foundational teachings. Sila (moral discipline), samadhi (meditative concentration) and prajna (insight) are still important here; it's just that the samadhi part consists of chanting practice, rather than silent meditation.

[rlp7786]

Im learning they do teach them, especially to beginners, but they arent as strongly emphasized as much as in other sects, due to a reliance on other-power rather than self-power. They are there as a core, but the practice of nembutsu is, naturally, the main teaching. Just like in zen they teach them, but don't harp on them, as meditation and direct realization is the main path. With Jodu Shinshu they use faith in Buddha and his nature...They submit to it and dissapear into it. They lose themselves in Buddha-hood not through aggressive effort but through submitting their false sense of self to it, until it dissapears before the light of being. Its quite a beautiful idea, really. Its alot like the Bhakti of hinduism but in a distinctly buddhist way.

[tariki]

rlp7786, as I actually have no connection with any Pure Land "congregation" I have no idea how much the core teachings - such as the 4 Noble Truths - are emphasised at that level. From my own study and reading, which includes the Complete Works of Shinran, I would say that are not explicitly mentioned/emphasised as such, or very little.

However, I would also say that such is not the whole story. The Theravada texts make it plain that the 4 Holy Truths - of Suffering, of its cause, of its end, and the way to its end - are "truths" to be acted upon, not propositions to be "believed in" and learnt as such. Suffering is to be understood, we are to let go of its causes, come to a realisation of its end, and actually cultivate the path towards its end. So the question is more whether the Pure Land way (or, specifically Jodo Shin Shu per Shinran) is able to encourage and support such an existential engagement with the truths. And I would say yes.

The Pure Land way is known as the easy path (though few there be who walk it!) and this is contrasted with the Way of the Sages , where one is encouraged to cultivate and seek wisdom and thus gain/attain enlightenment. In the Pure Land, we rather return to the foolish self to be saved by Amida. The foolish self, however, has no necessary intellectual connotations, but relates more to the total incapacity of our "selves" to manufacture our own enlightenment. In Theravada it has been said that at the moment of "release" effort falls away, having reached the end of its scope. My experience is that the Pure Land way explores the scope of effort in ways effective for our release from suffering, thus understanding it.

Hope this is of some help.

[Willemien]

Based on my (limited thus-far) studies on Pure land Buddhism I have a concern Id like some answer to. Do they emphasize as a part of their teaching the 4 Noble truth's and the 8 Fold path at all? Iv'e not been able to get through their entire scriptures yet and I understand Shinrans interpretation of pure land and Amitabha as Buddha nature and the self power as well as the other power, I even understand and love the chanting practice and plan to implement it as a stabilization mantra in my own meditations, but...as someone who believes the foundation of buddhism should lie in its oldest and universal teachings that exist in all sects...Im just curious as to what emphisis is put on the good old 4 and 8 in this sect?

Hi RLP,

I visit a Jodo Shin Shu Temple (Three Wheels Temple in London) and i think, that Jodo Shin Shu (Shinran) finds the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path just not importand.

Friendship, that is really the only thing that matters, and all the rest of the spiritual life follows from that.

Meditation is just a nice way to relax, there is no spiritual meaning in it. ( Maybe the buddha was just looking for a way to work with hopeless do gooders when he thaught it)

Chanting and ceremonies are just nice things to do together, so do them.

The pure land itself is consoling and therefore be grateful for it.


Shinran had no disciples, so how can he have teachings?

[Aloka]

I visit a Jodo Shin Shu Temple (Three Wheels Temple in London)

This looks as though its your temple Willemein, and I noticed there's a talk "The Buddha Appears through the Individual"

http://www.threewheels.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=9


.

[tjampel]

I read the entire talk and the other talk about DT Suzuki. Both very good. I am impressed by this teacher. And I think that the 4 noble truths are certainly recognized and pointed out, along with actions that accord with much of the 8-fold path but do fall short of ecompassing it in its entirety. There's a definite willingness to forgo the idea of working out one's own salvation in one lifetime, so there's no emphasis on wisdom and, I think, one might argue that the ability to connect with and accept Maitreya's blessings might require a very high degree of meditative stability, if it is really possible to achieve this. I don't see this as something done through ordinary Christian-style prayer sessions; I think there's a mantric element and, as most of us know, mantra repetition is most effective when done in a state of meditative equipoise.

The emphasis here is on faith (in the ability to receive perfect love from what I posit as a mentally created object---Maitreya) and in generating loving kindness towards others within a context of renunciation. Though it seems that it's a kind of faith in the actions of another to help one's self, if one were to take the same view that Tibetan vajrayana practitioners are explicitly instructed to take, with regard to any deity, then you can argue that it's not really placing faith in "other power" at all (as is the rap with Pure Land).

As long as the practitioner can see Maitreya as empty, appearing from emptiness, and inseparable with their own mind, they can develop faith and become a pure receptive vessel for Maitreya's love and promise of protection seeing this as their true teacher (their highest and best mind), then this danger of developing belief in truly existent things and beings and powers is avoided. Do Pure Land practitioners do this? Probably not; but neither do many Tibetans...if not most. They see a universe full of spirits, demons, Buddhas, protectors and whatnot. Accepting the love of Amitaba in this proper way can then be said to cause "birth" into a Pure Land, at that moment to the degree that this mind of unconditional love supplants the mundane mind of worldly thoughts. I'm using the term birth in the way that Element might use it here; birth occurs when one opens one's self up to Amitaba's all-encompassing love and, simultaneously, closes the door on a life of samsaric pursuits. That is to say, one renounces Samsara.

So, if we can think of this love, which gives completely of itself as filling our bodies and mind, and cleansing us of all samsaric attachment and causing intense loving kindness to be aroused in our heart and if we recognize that what's happening is definitely something that's appearing within our own mind through our own efforts in concentrating on a deity, in visualizing one, in asking for blessings, then whatever being, deity, buddha, we're happening to visualize, whatever action they appear to be independently taking, I still think this is a healthy and useful practice for disengaging us from strong desire and anger and other destructive emotions. It also weakens ignorance in that we no longer place our faith in the ability of sense objects to give us happiness or lasting pleasure. It may enhance dualistic notions in some who practice it; but the dualism of ordinary activities is far more destructive, and the acceptance of Amitaba's love might be analogized to the Tibetan practice of merging a mentally created deity with your mind and making it an inseparable part of it.

Faith gets a very bad rap from many people. Without faith I don't think it's possible to achieve liberation. You need to achieve the 2nd of the three types of faith for certain, and, ultimatly, you need the first and third as well. This is clearly stated by the Buddha when he advises lay people to not believe something because it comes from him (a famous guru) but because they are able to experience it working for themselves. When they experience it working they develop faith based on conviction that the teachings work. Then they start to trust the object and can seriously entertain that the result taught by this trusted object (teacher) is reachable.

The three types of faith (I've kind of extended the definition of the 2nd type to reconcile differing views)
1. Faith in the object itself
2. Faith in the teachings/process based on developing conviction based on reason combined with experience and/or realization
3. Faith in the possibility of achieving the desired result.

If you meditate and are always agnostic as to whether the Buddha's teachings and the method he prescribed (the various types of study, conduct, meditation, the absorptions, investigations taught by your tradition/lineage) can actually lead to the elimination of suffering I doubt that it can---for you. You need to slowly develop conviction that they work. This occurs, in part, through experiences in meditation, and in part, through reading, listening, contemplating/reasoning. For your practice to be life-changing you need to be willing to actually give up on this life of samsaric pursuits and develop non-faith (thinking of something as unworthy of faith...that's different from lacking faith) in the efficacy of samsara as a means of delivering lasting happiness or freedom from suffering. So, it's like a boy who is completely attached to playing with toy soldiers who gets his first video game. No one has to pull him away from toy soldiers. He no longer sees them as a means to bring him pleasure because he's found something so much much better. In fact, after a few months of video game playing, if you take the game away from him and give him back his toy soldiers he may be a very unhappy boy.

If postulating a very powerful object like Maitreya gets practitioners to true renunciation that's an awesome accomplishment in and of itself. If they are able to then have a good vision of Amitaba relating to them, blessing them, offering them protection, etc. they will begin the process of letting go of all the things we stupidly cling to. So I think that this method offers a lot to those who are attracted to it, whether or not there's some paradise out there waiting for us.

[Willemien]

:up2:

Thanks for your replies, I did nopt want to make advertisments for three wheels, but now others have done it before me maybe i may refer to

Reverend Sato's new translation of the Tannisho

http://www.threewheels.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=1