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Element
10 Nov 11, 01:51
hello forum

just posting about Anapanasati - Mindfulness With Breathing - Step 3

1. the Pali includes the physical body as a sense organ and the physical sensations touching the physical body as a sense object


kāyañca paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso

Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact.

Chachakka Sutta: The Six Sextets (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html)

2. the Pali also classifies the in & out breathing as a body or 'kaya' (lit: 'collection' or 'group')


Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies

Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness with Breathing (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html)

3. step 3 of Anapanasati can read "experiencing all kaya" or "experiencing all bodies"


sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī

paṭisaṃvedī = experiencing
sabba = all, every
kāya = bodies


4. is short, it can mean experiencing the body & breath together

regards

;D

Esho
10 Nov 11, 07:46
Thanks a lot Element,

Having to start mediation anew, getting under the way of the instructions given by Buddha, breathing kindly has been chosen as the very first step.

Seems Anapanasati a good first sutta for this, isn't it?

This collection of bodies in step two, refers to the body parts, like hands, head, foot, etc., and among others, breathing?

Step 3 refers to breathing in and out we are in the body, we calm the body?

:dontknow:

srivijaya
10 Nov 11, 10:42
the Pali includes the physical body as a sense organ and the physical sensations touching the physical body as a sense object...

...it can mean experiencing the body & breath together

Good point Element. Very much a case of experiencing the totality of sensory information upon which our awareness alights.

I'm never quite sure what Buddha meant with "a body among bodies". I've seen that translation disputed on occasion but never resolved to my satisfaction.

He meant something by it, so much is clear.
:hands:

daverupa
10 Nov 11, 13:31
I posted about this elsewhere just this morning; my understanding is that the sum total of sensory input from the body, when treated as a single percept, can then be distinguished according to whether or not any particular sensory impact is related to breathing, or not. A good example showcasing this is the difference between the sensory impact of the sitting surface versus the sensory impact of the abdomen during breathing (which itself is further distinguishable according to subtle differences between inhale and exhale functions, per steps 1 and 2).

Therefore, rather than thinking of the body in terms of gross anatomy (belly, lip, nose, foot), one takes the sum total of sensory impacts arising in the body, some of which are to do with breathing and some of which are not. Thereafter, the sensory impact of breathing is a 'body' within the larger context of the other sensory impacts, to wit "body among bodies".

Focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils helps in the beginning perhaps, but the expansiveness of the four steps of Tetrad I altogether mean that nose-focus &tc. are a crutch, not a meditation object to become absorbed in. I think the commentarial literature makes missteps here.

srivijaya
10 Nov 11, 13:46
I posted about this elsewhere just this morning; my understanding is that the sum total of sensory input from the body, when treated as a single percept, can then be distinguished according to whether or not any particular sensory impact is related to breathing, or not.
Hi Dave,
In your opinion, does it follow that if a sensory impact is not related to breathing, it should be disregarded?


Therefore, rather than thinking of the body in terms of gross anatomy (belly, lip, nose, foot), one takes the sum total of sensory impacts arising in the body, some of which are to do with breathing and some of which are not. Thereafter, the sensory impact of breathing is a 'body' within the larger context of the other sensory impacts, to wit "body among bodies".
Interesting idea, I've never encountered that one before - I'll ruminate on it for a while.


Focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils helps in the beginning perhaps, but the expansiveness of the four steps of Tetrad I altogether mean that nose-focus &tc. are a crutch, not a meditation object to become absorbed in. I think the commentarial literature makes missteps here.
I agree. Like counting breaths, it's just a crutch.
:hands:

daverupa
10 Nov 11, 16:57
Hi Dave,
In your opinion, does it follow that if a sensory impact is not related to breathing, it should be disregarded?


I think the fourth part of Tetrad I involves using the breath, experientially defined in step three, to conditionally calm these other sensory impacts because one can influence the breath a little. Therefore, one should remain focused on what any particular step of the Tetrad calls for, which changes throughout the Tetrad.

I think only the fourth step calls for engagement with them, but I see no reason to think "I'm only on step one, I can't do step four". Perhaps, if one's rump is feeling sore or a foot is falling asleep, calm the breath and watch how that allows the other input to recede into the background, perhaps even to disappear - this is different than "disregarding" it. A solid and habitual posture is very important for this reason.

Element
10 Nov 11, 21:23
This collection of bodies refers to the body parts, like hands, head, foot, etc., and among others, breathing?
hi KA

no

the physical body "collection" is simply the physical body the mind can feel/sense at the same time as it feels/senses the breathing

for example, the breathing suddenly becomes very relaxed and then, at the exact same time, you feel your body becoming very relaxed

this is experience "all bodies" or "both bodies"

the mind experiences the comfort/discomfort of the physical body that occurs with the different qualities of the breathing

it is to experience a cause & effect relationship between the physical body & the breath

as for the preliminary steps of Anapanasati, they are:

1. experiencing when the breathing is long
2. experiencing when the breathing is short
3. experiencing the cause & effect relationship between the body & breathing ("all bodies")
4. experiencing the calming of the breathing

kind regards

;D

Element
10 Nov 11, 21:36
...one takes the sum total of sensory impacts arising in the body, some of which are to do with breathing and some of which are not. Thereafter, the sensory impact of breathing is a 'body' within the larger context of the other sensory impacts, to wit "body among bodies".

hi Dave

personally, i suggest the very contrary

Anapanasati is Mindfulness With Breathing

it concerns itself primarily with the breathing & what can be experienced in association with experiencing the breathing

the first two steps are establishing awareness of breathing

when the mind loses awareness of the breathing it must start again

step 3 is something more subtle, which occurs as mental sensitivity to the breathing grows

step 3 is the sensory impact of physical body (internally) as a 'body' within the context of awareness of breathing as a 'body'


Perhaps, if one's rump is feeling sore or a foot is falling asleep...
these kinds of "sensory impacts" are not really related to the practise of Step 3. they are merely extraneous issues

step 3 is something 'spiritual', i.e., connected to insight into ease & suffering (per MN 149, below)

step 3 begins with the words: "he trains himself", which means the fruition of higher morality, higher concentration & higher wisdom

where as steps 1 and 2 are just samadhi training; just preliminary steps

regards

;D


For him — infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive to both ease of body & ease of awareness.

MN 149 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html)

Esho
10 Nov 11, 23:45
hi KA


for example, the breathing suddenly becomes very relaxed and then, at the exact same time, you feel your body becoming very relaxed

this is experience "all bodies" or "both bodies"

Yes, this is the experience felt with breathing.


as for the preliminary steps of Anapanasati, they are:

1. experiencing when the breathing is long
2. experiencing when the breathing is short
3. experiencing the cause & effect relationship between the body & breathing ("all bodies")
4. experiencing the calming of the breathing

kind regards

;D

Thanks Element,

;D

daverupa
11 Nov 11, 02:00
the first two steps are establishing awareness of breathing

when the mind loses awareness of the breathing it must start again

step 3 is something more subtle, which occurs as mental sensitivity to the breathing grows

step 3 is the sensory impact of physical body (internally) as a 'body' within the context of awareness of breathing as a 'body'

I think in step 3 these 'bodies' are to be experienced within the context of breathing in and breathing out (all Tetrads are within this context), but the 'breath body' is not given pride of place (your "within the context of breathing as a 'body'") in step 3: "Sensitive to all bodies" is how the Sutta has it, the combined percept of breath-body-and-physical-body being experienced within the simple context of breathing in and breathing out. I apologize if I did not make this simultaneity clear.

In other words, in step 3 any remaining physical impacts are integrated into what was awareness of only the breath in steps 1 & 2. This integrative step is what allows step 4 to be enacted.


step 3 is something 'spiritual', i.e., connected to insight into ease & suffering (per MN 149, below)

MN 149 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html) is describing the culmination of development:


Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

This follows the development of the N8P, which includes "Any concentration, his right concentration" in that Sutta, which evokes jhana. The depth of experienced insight, as described, is tremendous; since samatha and vipassana here occur in tandem, I rather think this is to be expected in connection with Tetrad IV, and not step 3 in Tetrad I. (Indeed, MN 149 remarks that the four frames of reference - satipatthana - go to the culmination of their development, which seems to me to implicate all four Tetrads).


step 3 begins with the words: "he trains himself", which means the fruition of higher morality, higher concentration & higher wisdom

I do not think there is any support for this. The demarcation between "he knows" and "he trains" appears to me simply to be an indicator of the difference between a relatively passive awareness of the breath (1 & 2) and a more active application of the mind (3+).


where as steps 1 and 2 are just samadhi training; just preliminary steps

I think the whole of anapanasati (sammasati) is preparation for samma-samadhi (jhana). I can't imagine what you mean by saying these two steps in particular are "just" so.

Element
11 Nov 11, 02:29
...but the 'breath body' is not given pride of place (your "within the context of breathing as a 'body'") in step 3...
hi Dave

naturally, we have already disagreed (wholeheartedly) here


...In other words, in step 3 any remaining physical impacts are integrated into what was awareness of only the breath in steps 1 & 2.
again, we have disagreed here, already

as i suggested, Step 3 is experiencing the spiritual cause & effect relationship between the breath & the physical body

to feel a pain in your knee or foot has no connection whatsoever to Step 3 of Anapanasati


This integrative step is what allows step 4 to be enacted.
step 4 is calming the breathing, which occurs as a natural result of watchfulness, non-attachment &/or concentration

a practitioner generally experiences step 4 before step 3

step 3 is not required for step 4

step 4 is the last step experienced in the tetrad because is the causal condition for the arising of step 5

thus, naturally, it is listed last in the tetrad

however, step 3 is there as an indicator of whether samadhi has been refined/purified so it has the quality of clarity & discernment

as i said, a new meditator will generally experience the calming of the breathing due to merely watching it before they experience any more profound experiences such as step 3

even young children are taught at school to watch their breathing so they learn to calm down


The depth of experienced insight, as described, is tremendous; since samatha and vipassana here occur in tandem, I rather think this is to be expected in connection with Tetrad IV, and not step 3 in Tetrad I.
step 3 is primarily vipassana, i.e., experiencing a cause & effect relationship between the body & breath, and also its impermanence & not-self

the arising of step 3 indicates the mind has clarity (rather than fuzziness)

step 4 is primarily samatha, calm the breathing via letting go & mere watchfulness


I do not think there is any support for this. The demarcation between "he knows" and "he trains" appears to me simply to be an indicator of the difference between a relatively passive awareness of the breath (1 & 2) and a more active application of the mind (3+).
this is not the case in the theory. the words "He trains himself" have deep meaning

the one that "trains himself" establishes samadhi with letting go (vosagga) as the sole object. thus, the 4NTs (right view) is fully engaged and active (see: SN 48.10 & 48.9 about concentration)


I think the whole of anapanasati (sammasati) is preparation for samma-samadhi (jhana).
again, i must disagree here. the last tetrad of Anapanasati is 100% vipassana

kind regards

Element ;D

daverupa
11 Nov 11, 02:52
Step four before step three;
the ossification of samatha-vipassana as practices instead of qualities of mind;
the use of the term "spiritual";
the foundationless assertion that "he trains" has deep meaning;
the inappropriate superposition of aspects of Tetrad IV onto Tetrad I;
the idea that step four's "calming the bodily fabrication" merely refers to calming the breath;

Indeed, we thoroughly disagree.

_/\_ :heart:

Element
11 Nov 11, 03:24
Indeed, we thoroughly disagree.
thanks Dave

it appears the Pali & your good self are in disagreement

all the best ;D


Step four before step three;


I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation'.

MN 36 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html)

***************


the ossification of samatha-vipassana as practices instead of qualities of mind;

ossification
a. The process of becoming set in a rigidly conventional pattern, as of behavior, habits, or beliefs.
b. Rigid, unimaginative convention


(3) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe out.

(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe out

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out.

MN 118 (http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Br eathing.htm)

experiencing = vipassana
calming = samatha

******************


the use of the term "spiritual";


it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana.

SN 56.11 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html)


Bhikkhus, it is for the unshakeable release of mind that is the essence and end of the holy [spiritual] life.

MN 29 (http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/029-mahasaropama-sutta-e1.html)

******************


the foundationless assertion that "he trains" has deep meaning;


sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati

He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies

MN 118


Sikkhatīti kho, bhikkhu, tasmā sekhoti vuccati. Kiñca sikkhati? Adhisīlampi sikkhati, adhicittampi sikkhati, adhipaññampi sikkhati.

There are these three trainings. Which three trainings? The training in heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in heightened discernment.

Sikkha Sutta: Trainings (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html)

*************


the inappropriate superposition of aspects of Tetrad IV onto Tetrad I;


There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.

Dhammapada (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.budd.html)


[And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

MN 149 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html)


In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself or externally on the body in & of itself or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body [and not a 'self']' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

Satipatthana Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html)


And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go(vosagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

SN 48.10 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html)


Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go (vossaga) and rejecting, of that same craving.

SN 56.11 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html)

***************


the idea that step four's "calming the bodily fabrication [kaya sankhara]" merely refers to calming the breath;


But what is the bodily fabricator (kaya sankhara)?

In-&-out breaths are the bodily fabricator (kaya sankhara).

MN 44 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html)

:buddha:

Element
11 Nov 11, 11:45
MN 149 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html) is describing the culmination of development:


also, Dave

MN 149 describes the experience of the stream-enterer

MN 149 describes the experiencing of the diminishing of suffering via the abandoning of wrong view, craving & attachment


For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive to both ease of body & ease of awareness.

MN 149 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.149.than.html)
for the stream-enterer, step 3 is the experience of:

(1) due to the establishing (mindfulness) of right view, craving & attachment are abandoned
(2) due to the abandoning of attachment, the breathing calms
(3) due to the calming of the breathing, the body calms
(4) due to the calming of the body, the mind calms
(5) due to the calming of the mind, the breathing calms
(6) due to the calming of the breathing, the body calms
(7) due to the direct insight into the cause & effect relationship above, craving & attachment continue to be abandoned
(8) due to the abandoning of attachment, the breathing further calms
(9) due to the further calming of the breathing, the body further calms
(10) due to the further calming of the body, the mind further calms
(11) etc, etc, etc, until jhana

the stream-enterer here has their beginning realisation of the Four Noble Truths

MN 149 describes this clearly

thus, the path comes to fulfilment for the stream-enterer

to hold, as you seemed to have done, that the path only comes to fulfilment for the arahant, is not how it is

all practitioners experience relative 'ease of body & ease of mind' and not just the arahant

jhana is developed in this way, as described in (1) to (10) above

;D

also, it is not correct to rigidly hold to the view that right concentration is only jhana. the Pali states:


Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions

MN 117 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html)

the reaching of jhana requires the prior development of right concentration

the development of the right concentration of jhana cannot occur due to the prior development of wrong concentration

steps 3 and 4 are the development of right concentration that occurs prior to jhana

steps 3 and 4 are right concentration as the words "he trains himself" are used

thus the Buddha described right concentration, prior to jhana, as follows:


And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossaga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. [Thanissaro]

Here, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release (vossaga) the object. [Bodhi]

SN 48.10 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html)
please note, as SN 49.10 describes, this 'making relinquishment (vossaga) the object' occurs prior to jhana

the Four Noble Truths are realised and applied prior to jhana

as MN 117 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) describes about the development of the Noble Right Concentration:


One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

for example, when Kondañña, Sariputta & Maha Mogallana experienced stream-entry, this occurred prior to jhana

Bhikkhu Bodhi has written an essay (here (http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm)), demonstrating jhāna is not needed to attain stream-entry

regards

;D

Element
11 Nov 11, 18:55
Focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils helps in the beginning perhaps, but the expansiveness of the four steps of Tetrad I altogether mean that nose-focus &tc. are a crutch, not a meditation object to become absorbed in.
again, Dave, i would suggest the very opposite

focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils is not something experienced in the beginning

the reality of Anapanasati here has been mixed up with Goenka's methods of meditation

when the mind is established in the Noble Right Concentration, which makes letting go (vossaga) its object, the mind, by nature, converges with the breathing in & out because the breathing in & out becomes the mind's grossest sense object

as the breathing naturally calms, their comes a period of time, prior to entering the 2nd Tetrad, when the mind is only aware of the touch (sensation) of the breathing in & out at the nostril

this is the beginning of the genuine development of the (literal) one-pointedness that will become jhana and is the causal condition for the arising of rapture & happiness (steps 5 & 6)

therefore, focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils is not something experienced in the beginning

instead, focusing on the breath moving past the lip or nostrils is something experienced at the end of the 1st Tetrad

;D


I think the commentarial literature makes missteps here.
so you also disagree with the commentarial literature on the basis of believing feeling a sensory impact from your foot or knee is some kind of profound experience which forms an intrinsic part of the training in Step 3?

at least the commentarial literature in the form of the Vissuddhimagga correctly describes the tranquilising from the gross to the subtle

at least the Vissuddhimagga correctly keeps the breathing as the object in Step 3

correctly, the Vissuddhimagga describes matters such as sensory impacts arising from the feet, knees, etc, as not related to the practise


176. And here both the gross and subtle state and also [progressive]
tranquilizing should be understood. For previously, at the time when the bhikkhu
has still not discerned [the meditation subject], his body and his mind are
disturbed and so they are gross. And while the grossness of the body and the
mind has still not subsided the in-breaths and out-breaths are gross.


171. (iii) He trains thus: “I shall breathe in … I shall breathe out experiencing the
whole body”: he trains thus: “I shall breathe in making known, making plain,
the beginning, middle and end of the entire in-breath body. I shall breathe out
making known, making plain, the beginning, middle and end of the entire outbreath
body,” thus he trains. Making them known, making them plain, in this
way he both breathes in and breathes out with consciousness associated with
knowledge. That is why it is said, “He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in … shall
breathe out …’”

the major shortcoming of the Vissuddhimagga is it does not instruct, as the Buddha did, the development of jhana by making vossaga (relinquishment; abandonment; letting go) the mind's object; that is, by making Right View the 'forerunner'

as a result, the Vissuddhimagga is instructing a form a "wrong concentration"

as a result, the Vissuddhimagga does not describe & understand the subtlety of step 3 as "all bodies" because wrong concentration, which uses the force of intent rather than the subtlety of letting go, cannot discern "all bodies"

but, apart from that, i cannot see how the description of the stages of progress in the Vissuddhimagga warrant your censure, as though sensory impacts from the feet or knees are somehow related to Step 3 and as though the mind "fixing" as the nostril is a beginner's practise

whilst the Anapanasati instruction in the Vissuddhimagga is quite immature and unsublime (being not based in vossaga), its description of the various stages of development do conform with the natural reality of breath tranquilisation, which includes the stage of the mind aware of the breathing from abdomen to nose-tip



176. And here both the gross and subtle state and also [progressive]
tranquilizing should be understood. For previously, at the time when the bhikkhu
has still not discerned [the meditation subject], his body and his mind are
disturbed and so they are gross. And while the grossness of the body and the
mind has still not subsided the in-breaths and out-breaths are gross. They get
stronger; his nostrils become inadequate, and he keeps breathing in and out
through his mouth. But they become quiet and still when his body and mind
have been discerned. When they are still then the in-breaths and out-breaths
occur so subtly that he has to investigate whether they exist or not.

189. Here are the stages in giving attention to it: (1) counting, (2) connection,
(3) touching, (4) fixing, (5) observing, (6) turning away, (7) purification, and (8)
looking back on these.

Herein, counting is just counting, connection is carrying on, touching is the
place touched [by the breaths], fixing is absorption, observing is insight, turning
away is the path, purification is fruition, looking back on these is reviewing.

197. The navel is the beginning of the wind issuing out, the heart is its middle
and the nose-tip is its end. The nose-tip is the beginning of the wind entering in,
the heart is its middle and the navel is its end. And if he follows after that, his
mind is distracted by disquiet and perturbation according as it is said: “When
he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle, and end of the in breath,
his mind being distracted internally, both his body and his mind are
disquieted and perturbed and shaky."

Then, fixing his mind on the place normally touched [by the breaths], he should
proceed to give his attention to that.

210. These in-breaths and out-breaths occur striking the tip of the nose in a
long-nosed man and the upper lip in a short-nosed man. So he should fix
the sign thus: “This is the place where they strike.”

204. When someone gives his attention to this meditation subject, sometimes it
is not long before the sign arises in him, and then the fixing, in other words,
absorption adorned with the rest of the jhána factors, is achieved.
so, due to its instruction of Wrong Concentration, the Vissuddhimagga makes the following eroneous statements in relation to Step 3 and the 1st Tetrad:


When they are still then the in-breaths and out-breaths
occur so subtly that he has to investigate whether they exist or not.

When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle, and end of the in breath,
his mind being distracted internally, both his body and his mind are disquieted and perturbed and shaky.

186. The first tetrad is set forth as a meditation subject for a beginner; but the
other three tetrads are [respectively] set forth as the contemplations of feeling, of
[the manner of] consciousness, and of mental objects, for one who has already
attained jhána in this tetrad.
when the Right Concentration is established, it is not required to investigate the subtle in-breaths and out-breaths as to whether they exist or not

when the Right Concentration is established, the natural awareness of the beginning, middle, and end of the does not disquieten, perturb and shake the mind because the mind is established in the stillness & freedom of vossaga

when the Right Concentration is established, steps 3 and 4 are not for the beginner but are actually fruition of higher training

the Anapanasati Sutta starts each of the last 14 steps with the words: "He trains himself", thus accords each of them similar status

if not for steps 3 & 4, how could vipassana (insight) into the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self of in-breaths and out-breaths (and the body) occur?

:confused:

Element
11 Nov 11, 20:20
Indeed, we thoroughly disagree.
Hi Dave

Therefore, indeed, yes, you seem to thoroughly disagree with most of the Buddhist world, in believing you have practised Step 3 by being conscious of the sensory impact of a pain in your knee, by being conscious of the sensory impact of your foot falling asleep and by losing awareness of breathing as a result

However, your disagreement has no verified basis because you have not provided any grounds to refute the rest of the Buddhist world

Until you have thoroughly practised & realised the instruction in the Vissuddhimagga, you have no basis for thorough disagreement

Until you have practised the Noble Right Concentration via vosagga, you have no basis for thorough disagreement

Until you have experienced "all bodies", you have no basis for thorough disagreement

With real metta

Element :heart: