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Murchovski
24 Aug 11, 22:46
For as long as I can recall I have been very uneasy about the concepts of "truth"and "perfection". In fact I am unable to beleve in an absolute finite (illusionary if you must) state of perfection at the secular or the cosmic level.
As I see it "nothing endures except change", pinched that from somewhere, and that an absoltely perfect state of being would mean stagnation and an end to creativity.
Most religions, to my knowledge, predict an end time, already established........the Christian Hell, Hindu Hells along with the caste system etc. All very anthropomorphic. I like to ponder on a real eternity wherby "we" impact on the value and detriment of a never ending state of flux. :hug:

Libertyinfinite
25 Aug 11, 01:04
I find infinity in not wanting anything. Life is always in motion. We must allow it to move. The primary cause of the end of being, or death, finite is the want of other things. Most of what the earth has been up until this point has been want of things. You want to impact? I would imagine that once wants are gone, nothing but freedom was, & the impact would be immemse. Life today is strangled. It suffers now more than ever.

But that doesn't mean that we can not end the wanting. That does not mean that we can never impact natures course. It just means that today we are blind to the truth of how powerful we really are.

hajurba
25 Aug 11, 03:51
For as long as I can recall I have been very uneasy about the concepts of "truth"and "perfection".
a never ending state of flux. :hug: You got it ...dear Murch....this is the truth.... we have to live with it....in our questions very often hide the answers! ;)

Esho
25 Aug 11, 06:02
I found this quote in a very, very old notebool of a workshop of human development I took in my early yeras in the University:


A visitor who himself defnia as truth-seeker, told the teacher: If you are looking for the truth, there is something you need above all. "

"I know: an irresistible passion for it."

"No. A ceaseless readiness to admit that you can be wrong."

;D

Murchovski
26 Aug 11, 08:39
Thanks for the input Harjuba but do you decree some absolute certainty, albeit on my behalf, in a sense?
Where I presently find myself, "I am sure enough to be unsure". Can't recall where I got that quote?:peace:

Murchovski
26 Aug 11, 08:43
Very true and so terribly rare. Really hard too! :up2:

Aloka
26 Aug 11, 08:48
The 'truth' as defined here by the Buddha is indisputable for me:





SN 56.11 - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding?

Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'

Continued here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html

Murchovski
26 Aug 11, 08:51
I can relate to your wants issue very strongly in its impact on secular life particularly relevant to greed, ego etc.
As for "our" power, well maybe collectively, along with other modalities.Are you postulating about our finite existences
or a more subtle cosmic idea? :peace:

Aloka
26 Aug 11, 09:44
Hi Murchovski,

Could you say which # post you are refering to in your replies if you don't use the quote function, please? It makes things a lot easier for the reader.

Many thanks :hands:

hajurba
26 Aug 11, 10:24
Thanks for the input Harjuba but do you decree some absolute certainty, albeit on my behalf, in a sense?
Where I presently find myself, "I am sure enough to be unsure". Can't recall where I got that quote?:peace:

Ha-ha Murch... it is not a matter of where we found a certain quote when it comes to statements about something that is true in the sense of it.
Also we both do not indulge in issuing any decrees about what is true or what is not. There just is truth in : I have been very uneasy about the concepts of "truth"and "perfection" a never ending state of flux. ...and in "I am sure enough to be unsure"

We also do not refer to the four Nobel truths here...at least I think so...maybe I am wrong. What we seem to investigate here is the working faculty of truth about experiences and feelings in daily live of the individual. This is a creative way of deepening and alerting our minds towards the 4 Nobel Truths rather than claiming that we know what is true.

I have an other quote in my mind that may be helpful.... which I have never forgotten ever since I came across of it some years ago. It is still helpful to me and my not be so to others. It is not from any ancient texts or something like that...and I can not find this quote in Internet...I just now had a look in the internet but could not find it. Its hidden amongst hundreds of books from different authors in our family library)

"The Truth is like the mighty Sagarmatha (The Mount Everest). One can not take a picture or drawing of it and show it around....claiming: "Look...this is Sagarmatha!" For it is not the true original. Those who want to seek the truth and feel the power of it have to climb up there to see it for themselves.";D

Aloka
26 Aug 11, 15:30
Here are some words from the late Ajahn Buddhadasa concerning 'truth'.





TRUTH


Now let us talk about "truth". Each of us has eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, and a touch-sensitive body, so all of us can judge things as true according to what our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body tell us. We can test and verify material things.

Worldly truth, which has nothing to do with Dhamma, is a matter of what we see or feel or believe to be true. We are deceived as to the nature of objects and of cause-effect relationships, all of which are subject to change. What is true one moment may not be true the next. Even the law of science are subject to change, as scientists well know.

A "law" which at one point in time is firmly believed to be true is later found not to be true and so is thrown out. This is because the truth at any particular point in time is a function of our ability to perceive it, of our resources for testing and verifying. This is worldly truth, the kind of truth that has nothing to do with Dhamma.

Truth that is truly truth does not change. In identifying "suffering" we must identify true suffering; "freedom from suffering" must be true freedom from suffering; the "cause of suffering" must be the true cause of suffering; and the "way to the elimination of suffering" must be the true way, not some false lead. these truths are the very special truths of the Buddha and of all enlightened beings.

Let us think of truth or of truths in this way. The whole purpose of education in whatever form is to get at truth. The purpose of all philosophy is to arrive at truth. But as things are, education and philosophy are incomplete, are half-baked, go only half way. They just fumble and bumble around with no hope of finding the truth. In seeking truth let us concentrate our attention on the most important matter of all, namely, the matter of suffering (dukkha) and the elimination of suffering.

To realize this truth is to arrive at the most useful, the most precious, and the best thing there is, although there are countless other things we might examine which would be of no use whatever. This is why the Buddha said, "One thing only I teach: suffering and the elimination of suffering." There were countless other things about which he might have talked but regarding which he remained silent. From the first day he spoke only of one thing, the thing that is the most useful of all.


http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/lookwithin5.html




:hands:

hajurba
27 Aug 11, 06:41
Thanks Aloka-D....you are our best guide...right to the point. Thanks also for this link. A lot of home work to do to read all of it and examine it. Very helpful. :hug:

Murchovski
28 Aug 11, 07:03
Hi Murchovski,

Could you say which # post you are refering to in your replies if you don't use the quote function, please? It makes things a lot easier for the reader.

Many thanks :hands:

Thanks Aloka D; thought I must have been doing something wrong. By jove, I think I've got it. :lol:

Murchovski
30 Aug 11, 02:50
Ha-ha Murch... it is not a matter of where we found a certain quote when it comes to statements about something that is true in the sense of it.
Also we both do not indulge in issuing any decrees about what is true or what is not. There just is truth in : I have been very uneasy about the concepts of "truth"and "perfection" a never ending state of flux. ...and in "I am sure enough to be unsure"

We also do not refer to the four Nobel truths here...at least I think so...maybe I am wrong. What we seem to investigate here is the working faculty of truth about experiences and feelings in daily live of the individual. This is a creative way of deepening and alerting our minds towards the 4 Nobel Truths rather than claiming that we know what is true.

I have an other quote in my mind that may be helpful.... which I have never forgotten ever since I came across of it some years ago. It is still helpful to me and my not be so to others. It is not from any ancient texts or something like that...and I can not find this quote in Internet...I just now had a look in the internet but could not find it. Its hidden amongst hundreds of books from different authors in our family library)

"The Truth is like the mighty Sagarmatha (The Mount Everest). One can not take a picture or drawing of it and show it around....claiming: "Look...this is Sagarmatha!" For it is not the true original. Those who want to seek the truth and feel the power of it have to climb up there to see it for themselves.";D Hello Hajurba. I get your drift;we seem to think alike, at least in some ways.
I have been dealing for some time with people who provide their "ultmate truths" from such and such a writer page 246 " and make sure you quote the right paragraph" sort of stuff, this more open ended approach is very refreshing.:cool: