Mahanama Sutta: mind departing the body

[Victorious]

Sure. Possibly. But, consistant with my view, Buddha has answered Mahanama according to his disposition. In other words, Buddha can speak with language and with metaphor that means one thing to the listener and other thing to the Buddha.

That sounds an awful lot like you are saying that the Buddha is lying to Mahanama or fooling him. Is that what you are saying?

Of course the notion of lofty & noble has rationality. But your view of reincarnation has no rationality in Buddhism. Your view is Hinduism.

Buddha taught about "rebirth", that is, "taking birth (jati) again".

There are numerous places in the suttas discounting the places using jati where the Buddha talks about reincarnation. That is a non debatable fact.
Would you like references?

/Victor

[Victorious]

@Element and @Deshy.

You talk about considering context and then both of you cherry pick single words or small phrases out of a long sutta and give them a different interpretation and want to imply that thus is the meaning of the whole sutta changed.


Why do you not publish the entire sutta here on the thread including your changes so that those reading it can better judge if your changes makes sense or no?

Element asked the forum for an opinion. My opinon is that this sutta does not imply what Element would like it to imply. There are other suttas that transmit the meaning Element want to ascribe to this one.

That is my humble opinon.

I am waiting eagerly for your translation/interpretation of the entire Mahanama Sutta.

Thanks

Victor

[Victorious]

When a mind is noble, such a stream-enterer, one-returner or non-returner, the superstitious interpretation of the death of these noble minds is they are "reborn" in heaven or a pure abode. In the suttas, when noble minds die, they take birth in a heavenly realm rather than are reborn in a human or other "earthly" realms. In other words, these noble minds are not "reborn" into a physical body but instead in heaven (according to superstition). Thus, Hindu reincarnation has no relevance because Hindu reincarnation is the mind entering another physical body. In Tibetan Lamaism, Hiindu reincarnation has relevence because this religion is based on Lamas being reincarnated again on this earth rather than Hinayanistically being reborn in heaven where they cannot help sentient beings.

To end, the essence of Dhamma is not found in obscure little suttas tucked away in the suttas given to puthujjana.

Kind regards

I do not know and I do not believe in Hindu reincarnation. I am pretty convinced that there is reincarnation though.
Btw I think you were right about Mn 117. It should read Other Worlds not Next World. It was you who told me that was it not?

Kind regards
/Victor

[Deshy]

Oh yeah right. That I did not think of that. Then in that case the the solace for mr Bigname is that while being alive and the body is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind becomes lofty and noble?

Yes I can see that that makes a lot of sense. A noble diciples mind becomes noble when these animals are ripping him apart? But not when he is shot or tortured by humans or run over by a car? Very logical. Surley.

Kalakriya means ending! Not death. As in ending of lifetime or Demise.

As I said, you need to take into account the context of this sutta rather than taking all that is said literally. The Buddha did not lie to Mahanama nor did he talk to Mahanama about life after death or rebirth. He was merely talking about death and the experience of death.

Kalakriya means the fulfilment of one's time. ie death. As you enthusiastically pointed out "ending of lifetime" is death whether there is rebirth or not.

The Buddha merely pointed out to the worried Mahanama the demise of the physical body and the benefit of having cultivated wholesome mental qualities to be experienced during death. Bare in mind that this is a compassionate attempt by the Buddha to set the mind of a patujjana lay follower at ease. Naturally he had to address Mahanama's specific fears about death and rebith (a trivial worldly pursuit of a patujjana) but he also carefully chose his worlds when he said "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad".

[Deshy]

Please try to stay focused on the topic Deshy.

This question is perfectly relevant to the topic in discussion. You seem to think the sutta translation of "uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi" means "rises upward and separates out". So I am asking you now, are you saying the mind rises up and separates from the physical body after death? (should be from somewhere near the top of the head since it apparently goes up).

You say you believe in reincarnation. Please explain what reincarnates? The mind?

[Deshy]

Why do you not publish the entire sutta here on the thread including your changes so that those reading it can better judge if your changes makes sense or no?

First of all, this isn't a long sutta. It is in the Samyutta nikaya. However, translating an entire sutta isn't an easy task with my limited knowledge on pali. Having said that, there are some phases in this sutta which I like to get clarified so I am willing to give it a try. But I cannot give you a definite time as to when I can finish. I hope you will have better luck with Element.

[Victorious]

This question is perfectly relevant to the topic in discussion. You seem to think the sutta translation of "uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi" means "rises upward and separates out". So I am asking you now, are you saying the mind rises up and separates from the physical body after death? (should be from somewhere near the top of the head since it apparently goes up).

How should I know? I did not write the sutta.

You say you believe in reincarnation. Please explain what reincarnates? The mind?

Hmm now that is totally off topic. We are discussing Elements Sutta translation and not my evil twin brothers reincarnation belief!



/Victor

[Victorious]

First of all, this isn't a long sutta. It is in the Samyutta nikaya. However, translating an entire sutta isn't an easy task with my limited knowledge on pali. Having said that, there are some phases in this sutta which I like to get clarified so I am willing to give it a try. But I cannot give you a definite time as to when I can finish. I hope you will have better luck with Element.

Yes I will say the same. I will to try to translate it too as an excersise to learn Pali!


/Victor

[Deshy]

How should I know? I did not write the sutta.

Irrespective of who wrote the pali, you have stated your opinion about the translation. You have argued that the correct translation is "it rises up and separates out" as opposed to alternate translations given here. So are you saying that the mind separates the body after death?

Hmm now that is totally off topic.

I think investigating if the Buddha had stated in other places that the mind separates the body and travels in space is relevant to this discussion as well as when translating the pali as "it rises up and separtes out". Such an investigation gives supporting material to whatever conclusion you come to regarding the translation of this sutta. Dhamma is interconnected. Not sure why you think this is off topic.

[Deshy]

my evil twin brothers reincarnation belief!

Sounds like DID. You keep referring to a brother who is evil and believes in reincarnation.