Mahanama Sutta: mind departing the body

[Victorious]

Also, just because vesesa has one meaning in one place, it doesn't need to have the same meaning everywhere it is used, even in the same sutta. For the record, I think that the primary meaning of visesa should be noble or eminent given the fact that the word is absorbed so by other languages which are influenced by pali. This is just a calculated guess. However, the word visesa also has secondary meanings. Sometimes in translations like these, you need to make a sensible judgment as to what one word could mean in a particular context. There is not much use in copying and pasting a set of words and making it bold to make a point which is irrational and does not complement the rest of the dhamma.

Visesa does not mean noble. It means special or apart(positive value) or an you say eminent. In Sinhala as well as Telugu if I am not wrong.

And dudette there are no forum rules for bold typing. But I wish there was one for being impertinent.

/Victor

[Deshy]

I think that you are overcomplicating things and seeing things that are not there.

Imo, seeing this suttas has anything to do with after-death is "seeing things that are not there".

Mahanama asked the Buddha a question a typical puthujjana would ask. Namely, "what will happen when I die or what will happen after my death"? The Buddha did not answer his question by saying "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your rebirth will not be a bad one". He merely said "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one".

apapakam te maranam bhavissati, apapika kalakiriya

maranam means death. kalakriya means death. As I see it, he was merely speaking of the experience of death; not after-death.

Edit: I think what Element initially said was correct. It is important to keep in mind the context of this whole discussion and who the Buddha was addressing. The Buddha's focus was consoling a worried lay disciple who was seemingly not a stream enterer, possibly old and apparently believed in rebirth. It seems that the Buddha's words were carefully chosen to address Mahanama's specific fears and worries rather than to teach him.

[Deshy]

If the answer is that a well trained mind rises and seperates out that would probably imply that reincarnation in a better place is meant. But if the mind after death becomes lofty and noble there is no rationality to that notion. Why would a mind change state just because of physical death?

A better question is, how does mind exist without a physical body? Please explain what mind (citta) is as you understand it.

[Deshy]

Visesa does not mean noble. It means special or apart(positive value) or an you say eminent. In Sinhala as well as Telugu if I am not wrong.

Well.... while ariya could be a closer translation to "noble", visesa also means distinguished. A distinguished person in society could be termed as an ariya puggala - a noble one so I don't think the translation is completely misapplied. However, I do agree that eminent is a better translation while apart is not. Visesa does not mean distinction; it is "a mark of distinction" meaning speciality or a distinguishing quality.

I wish there was one for being impertinent.

Irrelevant. You can raise your concerns regarding forum rules to the admins.

[Deshy]

I do not really give a hoot when the Theravadians think that rebirth occurs.

Try adding this part at the beginning:

Victorious: "For someone who once proclaimed rebirth fanaticism in a public forum, I do not really give a hoot when the Theravadians think that rebirth occurs"

That's better.

[Element]

What he is afraid of is the age old dilemma for people beliving in reincarnation. Mahanama is worried that if he dies at a moment when his minds is muddled he will fall into a bad reincarnation.

Sure. Possibly. But, consistant with my view, Buddha has answered Mahanama according to his disposition. In other words, Buddha can speak with language and with metaphor that means one thing to the listener and other thing to the Buddha.

If the answer is that a well trained mind rises and seperates out that would probably imply that reincarnation in a better place is meant. But if the mind after death becomes lofty and noble there is no rationality to that notion.

Of course the notion of lofty & noble has rationality. But your view of reincarnation has no rationality in Buddhism. Your view is Hinduism.

Buddha taught about "rebirth", that is, "taking birth (jati) again". When a mind is noble, such a stream-enterer, one-returner or non-returner, the superstitious interpretation of the death of these noble minds is they are "reborn" in heaven or a pure abode. In the suttas, when noble minds die, they take birth in a heavenly realm rather than are reborn in a human or other "earthly" realms. In other words, these noble minds are not "reborn" into a physical body but instead in heaven (according to superstition). Thus, Hindu reincarnation has no relevance because Hindu reincarnation is the mind entering another physical body. In Tibetan Lamaism, Hiindu reincarnation has relevence because this religion is based on Lamas being reincarnated again on this earth rather than Hinayanistically being reborn in heaven where they cannot help sentient beings.

To end, the essence of Dhamma is not found in obscure little suttas tucked away in the suttas given to puthujjana.

Kind regards

[Element]

Mahanama asked the Buddha a question a typical puthujjana would ask. Namely, "what will happen when I die or what will happen after my death"? The Buddha did not answer his question by saying "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your rebirth will not be a bad one". He merely said "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one".



maranam means death. kalakriya means death. As I see it, he was merely speaking of the experience of death; not after-death.

Well read.

[Victorious]

Imo, seeing this suttas has anything to do with after-death is "seeing things that are not there".

Mahanama asked the Buddha a question a typical puthujjana would ask. Namely, "what will happen when I die or what will happen after my death"? The Buddha did not answer his question by saying "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your rebirth will not be a bad one". He merely said "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one".

Oh yeah right. That I did not think of that. Then in that case the the solace for mr Bigname is that while being alive and the body is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind becomes lofty and noble?


Yes I can see that that makes a lot of sense. A noble diciples mind becomes noble when these animals are ripping him apart? But not when he is shot or tortured by humans or run over by a car? Very logical. Surley.

maranam means death. kalakriya means death.

Kalakriya means ending! Not death. As in ending of lifetime or Demise.

/Victor

[Victorious]

A better question is, how does mind exist without a physical body? Please explain what mind (citta) is as you understand it.

Please try to stay focused on the topic Deshy.

/Victor

[Victorious]

Try adding this part at the beginning:
Victorious: "For someone who once proclaimed rebirth fanaticism in a public forum, I do not really give a hoot when the Theravadians think that rebirth occurs"That's better.

What on earth are you talking about. I would NEVER say that. You have me confused with my evil, reincarnation believing, Twin brother.

Yeah that is the way it is!
Besides you can not prove anything!


/Victor